Ivory sale/import/export and CITES

mariusgmioc · 9th March 2017, 05:08 PM

Considering the importance of the topic, I have decided to open a new thread dealing with practical information pertaining sale/import/export of ivory containing objects under the new provisions of the CITES treaty.

Conclusion: all antiques containing ivory can be sold/imported/exported without restriction providing that
1. the ivory they contain is "worked"
("worked" meaning it is carved on its entire surface or it is cut and shaped into a diferent - from the raw tusk shape - object)
2. the object including the ivory is antique and the ivory parts haven't been replaced or repaired recently.

For this, a certificate from an authorised apraiser is required.

For example an Indian Karud with plain ivory hilt can be sold/imported/exported without restriction if it is accompanied by a certificate atestig that it is antique and didn't suffer recent repairs. The ivory scales in this case are considered "worked" ivory since they were cut and shaped as scales (gave you this example as I recently purchased this Karud from US and imported it into the Netherlands).

kai · 10th March 2017, 10:54 PM

Hello Marius,

It needs added emphasis, that it's not the CITES agreements but rather the law and regulations as implemented by member countries (or any federal states) - quite a few of these are much stricter than CITES per se!

For example, you're lucky that the scales are walrus. If they would have been made from african elephant, there was no way to get this piece into the US (except maybe by special permit for scientific reasons if successfully cleared by the authorities). Your chances getting it out of the US would depend on in which state the piece was acquired with states like California, New Jersey, or New York making it very, very tough again...

Here is an old thread with some very basic CITES info. However, the rules are changing all the time and I'm not sure we can keep all needed info current for all legislations...

Regards,
Kai

mariusgmioc · 11th March 2017, 06:44 PM

Thank you!

Very useful!

Jens Nordlunde · 15th March 2017, 10:28 PM

Can anyone with contacts to Sotheby's or Christies please ask how they do it?

silberschatzimsee · 16th March 2017, 01:12 AM

I was at christies 2 weeks ago in London and there they mentioned there is a total embargo to France with ivory items. It must have been a very new rule because they told it before every item containing ivory.

Since I collect ivoryitems I was keen-eared on this topic.

Ps: So the workaround would be to fly to Germany your purchase, drive by car to france and forget things in the glove box or in the backseat.

silberschatzimsee · 16th March 2017, 01:14 AM

Pps: I sadly didn't win my lot and do not live in France so I had no problems when flying back.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th March 2017, 10:03 AM

Thanks for the information.
I would not recomend to send anything with ivory via Germany, as they, for many years, have been very strict. Years ago I heard about a collector who had bought a dagger with an ivory hilt in the US, and had it sent to Germany where he lives. The dagger was confiscated, and he was not even allowed to give it to a museum.

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2017, 03:22 PM

It appears that as time passes by, common sense is gradually and steadilly replaced by idiocy in our society.

At times, I have the feeling that our governments are competing in terms of idiocy, in the sense that as soon as one government passes an idiotic law, there are always following governments striving to pass even more idiotic and non-sensical laws.

@ Jens
You say they didn't even allow him to donate the dagger to a museum... I assume the dagger was destroyed... in the spirit of the new European "civilization" not very much unlike ISIS destroyed the ancient artifacts and monuments that weren't into conformity with their set of rules and beliefs.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th March 2017, 04:52 PM

Marius, this has been discussed a number of times, here is a link to what Mark wrote, but be aware of, that it is years ago.
ahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6786&highlight=CITES
The only thuing I can come up with is, that the weapon societies in each country should contact parlimentarian/s, explain the problem, and ask how it can be solved. I do realise that we in Europe also have the EU parliment, which does not make it any easier, but I dont think it can be done in any other way.

Lee · 16th March 2017, 07:45 PM

I think the problems start with those animal rights pressure groups lobbying from the wrong-headed thinking that ivory, etc. must be made despicable and stigmatized to destroy all demand. This is then compounded by a lazy law enforcement mentality refusing to separate legitimate antiques from what arguably should be stigmatized. Hence we get these idiotic regulations that overly restrict legitimate antiques that are inherently not a significant threat to the endangered species, while still allowing import of trophy tusks from fresh 'licensed' kills.

The US Federal rules have been amended to be a bit more reasonable since the first version following President Obama's executive order, but "me too - me too - I'm more liberal than you!'" governments at the state level have complicated matters. At first, New York's subsequently enacted rules were a little more reasonable than the Federal rules - though not worth the bureaucratic hassles except for very high value items. Not to be outdone by neighboring New York, New Jersey then made up its own set of rules. Lew had some nice genuinely old ethnographic items with ivory and rhino horn elements that could now be sold interstate under the current Federal rules, but the state rules pretty much mean the only course of action for his family is to hold onto the items in hope that the rules will become more reasonable.

Jens is absolutely correct that we must try to reason with our legislators to see evolution of more sensible regulations that accomplish legitimate goals without the collateral insult and injuries.

I would advise collectors to be extremely careful about these overlapping and inconsistent rules that have been enacted at multiple levels of government until sense returns.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th March 2017, 10:32 PM

Lee is correct. The lobbying people is quite a big part of the problem.
We all know they are there, and we all know they get more and more power - but to stop them is quite another question. Their number should be reduced, and their access to the parliments should be reduced as well. In Switzerland they are working at it, and so should other countries.
It is hardly democracy that the firms/orginations which can oey for the biggest number and smartest lobbyists get the most power when it comes to the new laws.
When this is said, we must think of what can/will we do, to awoid that our collections are ruined?

Rick · 17th March 2017, 02:29 AM

A well represented and well funded advocacy group that is international in scope is what is required.
Surely antique dealers and auction houses would be interested.
Tangible history is at stake here.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th March 2017, 10:08 AM

Yes Rick, you are right thet a well funded advocacy group that is international in scope would be very good to have on our side of the fence.
Could museums like the MET and National museums be interested in a project

mariusgmioc · 17th March 2017, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Rick, you are right thet a well funded advocacy group that is international in scope would be very good to have on our side of the fence.
Could museums like the MET and National museums be interested in a project

More likely major auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's, Czerny's, etc. but I wouldn't hold my breath since even for them ivory items form only a very tiny fraction of their business.

Probably more realistically, we will have to deal with the problem ourselves on a individual "when needed" basis.

silberschatzimsee · 8th April 2017, 11:09 PM

https://www.antiquestradegazette.com...nasty-tea-set/

mariusgmioc · 9th April 2017, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silberschatzimsee

https://www.antiquestradegazette.com...nasty-tea-set/

This is like a symphony of absurdity!

I can easily understand that some customs officers have no more brains than a goose, but I would have expected more from a judge. I guess I was wrong in my expectations!

We must have entered the last stages of decay of our civilisation since common sense appears to be consistently replaced with idiocy!

Athanase · 9th April 2017, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

This is like a symphony of absurdity!

I can easily understand that some customs officers have no more brains than a goose, but I would have expected more from a judge. I guess I was wrong in my expectations!

We must have entered the last stages of decay of our civilisation since common sense appears to be consistently replaced with idiocy!

Your comment reminds me the film Idiocracy....

My parents have many ivory objects inherited from my grandfather who worked for a long time in Africa (before 1970). They are not to be sold, but the question arises as to the legality of the possession of such objects.

silberschatzimsee · 9th April 2017, 12:08 PM

Hey but at least the judge saved a few elephants and a couple of rhinos that day.

If one is really paranoid there could be a chance that he had his decision adviced from above and the teapots will be used to fund brexit.

RobertGuy · 10th April 2017, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silberschatzimsee

If one is really paranoid there could be a chance that he had his decision adviced from above and the teapots will be used to fund brexit.

So, going to a good cause at least

9th March 2017, 05:08 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Ivory sale/import/export and CITES Considering the importance of the topic, I have decided to open a new thread dealing with practical information pertaining sale/import/export of ivory containing objects under the new provisions of the CITES treaty. Conclusion: all antiques containing ivory can be sold/imported/exported without restriction providing that 1. the ivory they contain is "worked" ("worked" meaning it is carved on its entire surface or it is cut and shaped into a diferent - from the raw tusk shape - object) 2. the object including the ivory is antique and the ivory parts haven't been replaced or repaired recently. For this, a certificate from an authorised apraiser is required. For example an Indian Karud with plain ivory hilt can be sold/imported/exported without restriction if it is accompanied by a certificate atestig that it is antique and didn't suffer recent repairs. The ivory scales in this case are considered "worked" ivory since they were cut and shaped as scales (gave you this example as I recently purchased this Karud from US and imported it into the Netherlands). Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 10th March 2017 at 01:40 PM.

10th March 2017, 10:54 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Marius, It needs added emphasis, that it's not the CITES agreements but rather the law and regulations as implemented by member countries (or any federal states) - quite a few of these are much stricter than CITES per se! For example, you're lucky that the scales are walrus. If they would have been made from african elephant, there was no way to get this piece into the US (except maybe by special permit for scientific reasons if successfully cleared by the authorities). Your chances getting it out of the US would depend on in which state the piece was acquired with states like California, New Jersey, or New York making it very, very tough again... Here is an old thread with some very basic CITES info. However, the rules are changing all the time and I'm not sure we can keep all needed info current for all legislations... Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 11th March 2017 at 03:26 AM.

16th March 2017, 03:22 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	It appears that as time passes by, common sense is gradually and steadilly replaced by idiocy in our society. At times, I have the feeling that our governments are competing in terms of idiocy, in the sense that as soon as one government passes an idiotic law, there are always following governments striving to pass even more idiotic and non-sensical laws. @ Jens You say they didn't even allow him to donate the dagger to a museum... I assume the dagger was destroyed... in the spirit of the new European "civilization" not very much unlike ISIS destroyed the ancient artifacts and monuments that weren't into conformity with their set of rules and beliefs. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 16th March 2017 at 04:37 PM.

16th March 2017, 07:45 PM	#10
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	Silly Season I think the problems start with those animal rights pressure groups lobbying from the wrong-headed thinking that ivory, etc. must be made despicable and stigmatized to destroy all demand. This is then compounded by a lazy law enforcement mentality refusing to separate legitimate antiques from what arguably should be stigmatized. Hence we get these idiotic regulations that overly restrict legitimate antiques that are inherently not a significant threat to the endangered species, while still allowing import of trophy tusks from fresh 'licensed' kills. The US Federal rules have been amended to be a bit more reasonable since the first version following President Obama's executive order, but "me too - me too - I'm more liberal than you!'" governments at the state level have complicated matters. At first, New York's subsequently enacted rules were a little more reasonable than the Federal rules - though not worth the bureaucratic hassles except for very high value items. Not to be outdone by neighboring New York, New Jersey then made up its own set of rules. Lew had some nice genuinely old ethnographic items with ivory and rhino horn elements that could now be sold interstate under the current Federal rules, but the state rules pretty much mean the only course of action for his family is to hold onto the items in hope that the rules will become more reasonable. Jens is absolutely correct that we must try to reason with our legislators to see evolution of more sensible regulations that accomplish legitimate goals without the collateral insult and injuries. I would advise collectors to be extremely careful about these overlapping and inconsistent rules that have been enacted at multiple levels of government until sense returns.

11th March 2017, 06:44 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you! Very useful!

15th March 2017, 10:28 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Can anyone with contacts to Sotheby's or Christies please ask how they do it?

16th March 2017, 01:12 AM	#5
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	I was at christies 2 weeks ago in London and there they mentioned there is a total embargo to France with ivory items. It must have been a very new rule because they told it before every item containing ivory. Since I collect ivoryitems I was keen-eared on this topic. Ps: So the workaround would be to fly to Germany your purchase, drive by car to france and forget things in the glove box or in the backseat.

16th March 2017, 01:14 AM	#6
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	Pps: I sadly didn't win my lot and do not live in France so I had no problems when flying back.

16th March 2017, 10:03 AM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thanks for the information. I would not recomend to send anything with ivory via Germany, as they, for many years, have been very strict. Years ago I heard about a collector who had bought a dagger with an ivory hilt in the US, and had it sent to Germany where he lives. The dagger was confiscated, and he was not even allowed to give it to a museum.

16th March 2017, 04:52 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Marius, this has been discussed a number of times, here is a link to what Mark wrote, but be aware of, that it is years ago. ahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6786&highlight=CITES The only thuing I can come up with is, that the weapon societies in each country should contact parlimentarian/s, explain the problem, and ask how it can be solved. I do realise that we in Europe also have the EU parliment, which does not make it any easier, but I dont think it can be done in any other way.

16th March 2017, 10:32 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Lee is correct. The lobbying people is quite a big part of the problem. We all know they are there, and we all know they get more and more power - but to stop them is quite another question. Their number should be reduced, and their access to the parliments should be reduced as well. In Switzerland they are working at it, and so should other countries. It is hardly democracy that the firms/orginations which can oey for the biggest number and smartest lobbyists get the most power when it comes to the new laws. When this is said, we must think of what can/will we do, to awoid that our collections are ruined?

17th March 2017, 02:29 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	A well represented and well funded advocacy group that is international in scope is what is required. Surely antique dealers and auction houses would be interested. Tangible history is at stake here.

17th March 2017, 10:08 AM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Rick, you are right thet a well funded advocacy group that is international in scope would be very good to have on our side of the fence. Could museums like the MET and National museums be interested in a project

8th April 2017, 11:09 PM	#15
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	https://www.antiquestradegazette.com...nasty-tea-set/

9th April 2017, 12:08 PM	#18
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	Hey but at least the judge saved a few elephants and a couple of rhinos that day. If one is really paranoid there could be a chance that he had his decision adviced from above and the teapots will be used to fund brexit.