Torador once again.

[Pukka Bundook]

Evening Gents,

This torador is the latest acquisition, and most likely from Jaipur, as quite a few with very similar decoration have come from there.
It is in need of some TLC, but find it charming and one I would like to keep. :-)

[Pukka Bundook]

A few more photos;

[Pukka Bundook]

Last ones, sorry there are so many!
Somewhere I have an overall view,& will endeavour to find it!

Any insights most welcome.
I find this one very interesting because of the metal fittings to the fore and buttstock, plus apparently a nice barrel!

I Think, (capital T!) late 18th C, & Jaipur as noted previously.

Thanks in advance for any help or comments.
Richard.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard.

Ohhhh....that is a great looking Torador !!!! What I really like about this one is the decorated IRON mounts. When decorated, I find the iron mounts more attractive than brass mounts. And combined with the bone inlays........wonderful looking. That entire gun should clean up very nice. And, I'll bet the iron mounts make a great looking patina after cleaning. I don't blame you for keeping this one. Congratulations. Nice aquisition to say the least. Please post this one again after clean up. I would be anxious to see it again.
By the way, I hope it's OK if I borrowed the one photo above showing the pan cover. I will eventually send it to my gunsmith to copy in making a new one for my barrel (that's missing). Good detail for him to copy in this photo.
Rick.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Richard,

I still remember our visit to you nine years ago :-).

The guns you show are really very nice, and sometimes I thing I should have collected guns as well, but at other times I am glad I did not, as I would have spread the collection too much

Tell me, when these guns are restored, do you use them at your yearly shooting with old guns?

Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

Feel free to use whatever photos you wish!
Pleased you like it!
As it is still in the UK, it may be a while before I can get a look at it myself!

Dear Jens,

Is it nine years already?? How time flies!
I Did so enjoy your visit and wish you could have stayed longer.

You do well to limit your collecting, as you have learned and taught the rest of us much more by specialising!
I am, sadly, a jack of all trades and master of none! My interests are too spread and I wish I could discipline myself to a narrower field.

The only matchlock I have used up to now is the home-made one, but would really like to try an Indian arm, as I have read how well they worked and how reliable.
Whatever I restore, I do like to use, and yes, we do fire our old arms at the yearly gathering.
I will send you a link to one or two of our past shoots Jens, (YouTube) and then you can see what we get up to!
Each year we have a theme, and this year is India again!
The setting is always the Victorian era, but we move about the Empire so to speak!
If you ever come back to Canada, please come & stay for longer next time!!

Richard.

[BANDOOK]

Greetings Richard,A very nice Torador,love the workmanship on the barrel and the ivory inlay work .Also the Gun has had lots of use with the wear and tear,try and keep the patina as its most important for your beautiful Matchlock.
my gut feeling this is from Southern India and from Tanjore ,part of Tamil Nadu,then the Madras Presidency during British India

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Bandook,

Yes, I will not remove the patina, just clean it a little and mend the broken parts.
I believe the inlays are bone, and indeed Hope so!
Pleased you like it.
Thank you for your thoughts on its origins;

Can you give me any indications as to why you think it may be from the south, Tanjore?
I have an open mind on it, but have seen others with very similar decoration attributed to Jaipur.
Having said that, I well understand our usual troubles with Indian arms, how they were removed and even re-marked in other arsenals after capture & so forth.
Any information most gratefully received!!

Best wishes,
Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

I forgot to compliment you on the photos :-).
I still remember Linda's splendid breakfast :-), and the visit at your mother's.

Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

We too enjoyed your visit very much!
It was wonderful to meet your charming wife, and also your friend Charlie.

I told you this years shoot was an "India" theme. Here are two photos of Sarah when the theme was also India, maybe five years ago. :-)[IMG]

[Pukka Bundook]

Please pardon the double post;

Bandook,
The following photos are of a vey similar matchlock sold at Czerny's some time ago.
I cannot find the catalogue now!....but believe they said Rajasthan, but am going off memory!

I have searched high and low and cannot find the information on this one!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Picture of Sikhs ( Akali Sikh warriors) with Torador....and other weapons including Chakrams...or war Quoits. Often carried on a special head dress...

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

We too enjoyed your visit very much!
It was wonderful to meet your charming wife, and also your friend Charlie.

I told you this years shoot was an "India" theme. Here are two photos of Sarah when the theme was also India, maybe five years ago. :-)[IMG]

Hi Richard.
Looks like Sarah was shooting a .577 Snider. Correct ? Neat pics and Theme.
Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Please pardon the double post;

Bandook,
The following photos are of a vey similar matchlock sold at Czerny's some time ago.
I cannot find the catalogue now!....but believe they said Rajasthan, but am going off memory!

I have searched high and low and cannot find the information on this one!

Richard: WOW!! That Torador does indeed look very similar to yours. Possibly made in the same workshop (?).
Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Picture of Sikhs ( Akali Sikh warriors) with Torador....and other weapons including Chakrams...or war Quoits. Often carried on a special head dress...

Hi Ibrahiim.
Thank you for the pics. I'll add a couple of these to my library.
Of course, these are an artist's rendition, but I have noticed in all the paintings showing the typical Barudan style powder flask, they were usually suspended from the belt versus the shoulder. As well, they appear to be about medium in size. I've noticed that all the originals offered for sale today seem to be very large in diameter. I've never seen one in a medium to smaller size. Just curious. LOL
Rick

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

See http://gungearart.tumblr.com/post/70...ador-matchlock for more Torador examples and below...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is interesting as being a different shaped butt... not plank shaped but round by comparison;
Summary

Indian matchlock musket or Toradar.

One of a collection of weapons seized from mutineers during the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859), and subsequently donated to the Melbourne Public Library in 1860 by Earl Charles Canning, Governor-General of India.
Physical Description

Cal. .625 in., smooth bore barrel 1054 mm long, ornamental grooves. Pan on right hand side, V notch rear sight. Fully stocked, secured to barrel by 5 bands, ramrod missing, iron trigger & 2 sling swivels. Straight stock with ornamental brass mounts, serpentine protrudes from piece of shaped bone attached to top of stock.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So what is the difference between an Indian Torador and an Indian Camel gun The Rifle style or shoulder fired type) ? Is it only the Butt?? For a massive example of the Camel gun see http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/55/lid/30
See below for a mixture of both types for comparison. The top picture has an odd man out in what looks like Brown Bess configuration.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This is interesting as being a different shaped butt... not plank shaped but round by comparison;
Summary

Indian matchlock musket or Toradar.

One of a collection of weapons seized from mutineers during the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859), and subsequently donated to the Melbourne Public Library in 1860 by Earl Charles Canning, Governor-General of India.
Physical Description

Cal. .625 in., smooth bore barrel 1054 mm long, ornamental grooves. Pan on right hand side, V notch rear sight. Fully stocked, secured to barrel by 5 bands, ramrod missing, iron trigger & 2 sling swivels. Straight stock with ornamental brass mounts, serpentine protrudes from piece of shaped bone attached to top of stock.

Yes, round rather than plank style. And very straight. Closer to what you would find on Persian and Caucasion long guns. First one I've seen. Very interesting.
Rick.

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
Yes, Sarah is using the Snider. :-)

Ibrahiim,

I have a feeling that the torador you show in post #16 above, has had the decoration added recently. It looks newer than the arm. I had seen this one prior to this and it had me wondering!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Rick,
Yes, Sarah is using the Snider. :-)

Ibrahiim,

I have a feeling that the torador you show in post #16 above, has had the decoration added recently. It looks newer than the arm. I had seen this one prior to this and it had me wondering!

Pukka Bundook,

There is always the chance of that ... difficult to tell from photos but in fact nothing to stop someone having the work done later or to enhance a trusted weapon I suppose... The style and quality look worthy enough ... and enhance the weapon greatly...So we could say it's a Pukka Bundook

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes we could indeed, Ibrahiim!

I have a few photos saved of toradors with the rounded buttstock, or a rounded buttplate on a 5-sided stock. Less common by far than the usual shape!

The one you show from the Indian Mutiny is a very handsome arm!!

Richard.

[Pukka Bundook]

Pardon for bringing up an old thread, but I have recently received this torador, though purchased last year!

The reason for bringing this to light again, is to enquire about a couple of things;
The stock , as in many Indian toradors, is joined in the fore-end.
This makes it a two-piece stock. Should both halves be glued together when I have the other repairs completed?...or, did they rely on bands or bindings to hold the foremost part snugly in place?

I have the buttstock glued back together through the bade break, but as the screws holding the parts together were not tight and the parts could fridge a little, there will be some further 'skin grafts' needed.
The bore is Very good, so will make a shooter when all repaired, And, there is no large breech cavity as we so often find on these arms! The last inch is slightly tighter than the rest of the bore, so Much easier to work with.

Will show photos of this in another thread.

Any further guidance /advice much appreciated.

Richard.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard.

Glad to hear the Torador is finally in your hands. It's a nice one.

STOCK: I have held two Toradors with that V shaped join in the fore stock. Yes, many seem to have been made this way. The join seemed to be about mid-way in the fore stock. One had a decorative, re-inforcing type band where the two stock pieces met, with two barrel bands around the barrel at that point. And the other specimen just had two barrel bands next to each other right where the two pieces of the stock met. I don't recall any evidence of glue. So I think the two pieces were held together as you mention above.
That said, as long as I was doing the other stock repairs, and I intended on shooting it, I would probably have that join glued together. It would add strength to the forearm wood. Would probably eliminate any future "wobble" in the forestock. Just my thoughts.

BARREL: That is really good news !!!!! That slightly narrow one inch area will mostly be filled with powder anyway. Should not be a problem loading and cleaning. But do double-check the breech plug area. But if it looks similar to the forge welded one originally on mine, you should be ok. Nice you don't have to go through all the "surgery" mine did. LOL

Now I won't feel like the only one shooting a Torador. LOL
Please keep us posted on your progress - with photos when possible - !! Great project. It does in fact seem that both our Toradors came from the same area. Very cool.

Rick

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

Will indeed keep you posted with progress and photos !

Thank you for your thoughts on the stock and such. It was my first thought to glue the joint, as the stock can move a bit at that point.
Some have solid bands and some twine/wire or leather ties.
This one only had a solid band at muzzle, and some old copper wire over the splice, but it wasn't original.
The stock looks Bad right now!, as when I took the screws out, one little bird and one flower fell out and need putting back.
The 'elephant ' on the underside of the buttstock has only his trunk remaining!, as someone put a large wood -screw where he used to be!
Will plug that old wound (screw split the stock worse than before it was applied) and put a new 'elephant' on the trunk. :-)
Needs a buttplate as half was putty.. Fortunately I have some black water-buffalo horn so that will suffice.

More as and when.
Thanks for comments on Omani thread. will reply soon. :-)

Richard.

[Pukka Bundook]

Just a couple of interesting (to me) details on this one;

I think the owner must have been Hindu. :-)
It is decorated with eleven depictions of the Trisula.
Elgood shows very closely related examples in both "Arms and Armour Of the Jaipur Court" and "Firearms of the Islamic World".

He has the following to say about the Trisula;

"Trisula , from Trident,
Symbol of Siva.
None of the other weapons, -sword, axe, arrow, have a similar ritual significance.
Survivals found from Iron Age burials.
In Greek Tradition, the Trident is the lightning symjbol of Zeus, and this corresponds to the Indian concept of the Vajra / thunderbolt.
Such weapons being invariably missiles.
Indian tridents are held to have great magical power, being capable of overcoming the power of evil."
(Hindu Arms and Ritual, Rb't Elgood.)

Also, the pair of geese/swans on the stock, "Hamsa"
The Hamsa
In Hindu lore, the hamsa (a pair of divine birds) can be either swans or
geese. The two are interchangeable. The word hamsa is a cognate of the Latin anser (goose).
The hamsa lives on Lake Manasarovar in Tibet, from which it migrates to
India in the winter. It is extolled as the king of birds, and said to eat
pearls and be able to separate Soma from water (later milk from water) when the two are mixed.
It trancends creation, because it can fly in the sky, swim in the water, and
walk on the earth. The hamsa represents perfect union, balance and life
(breath and spirit).
In Vedic times, the hamsa was connected with Surya, the sun god. It
signified strength and virility. In the Upanishads, the hamsa acquired more
attributes, symbolizing purity, detachment, divine knowledge, prana (cosmic
breath) and spiritual accomplishment.
The hamsa laid a golden egg on the waters. (This is the same role taken by
the goose in ancient Egypt.) From that egg sprang the god Brahma, the
Creator. In the Upanishads, the hamsa is said to possess the sacred
knowledge of Brahma. Therefore, it symbolizes the elevation of the unformed
toward the Heaven of Knowledge. Brahma is often depicted riding on the hamsa

The hamsa is also used as a symbol of Narayana, an aspect of Vishnu, the
Preserver. In this context, the hamsa is a personification of the soul in
the universe. The flight of the hamsa symbolizes the escape from the cycle
of samsara, rebirth.

Not wanting to read too much into the hamsa on the stock, but I do wonder what which part of the above was significant in the Jaipur court?...., as there are a good few matchlocks surviving (from Jaipur)all with the two birds, (Hamsa) and the trisula.

Not got to the flowers yet, Or the elephant!

[Pukka Bundook]

Please pardon the trisula of posts!. .. :-)

For the sake of clarity, I wanted to keep these photos separate from the last post.
They are of toradors, almost certainly from the Jaipur court, to show more examples of this type. Even down to the badly done engraving and the same pierced trigger!
The last example may be earlier or later, as it has no trisula on the barrel But! It depicts Siva holding a trisula so the same idea is present.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Rick,

Will indeed keep you posted with progress and photos !

Thank you for your thoughts on the stock and such. It was my first thought to glue the joint, as the stock can move a bit at that point.
Some have solid bands and some twine/wire or leather ties.
This one only had a solid band at muzzle, and some old copper wire over the splice, but it wasn't original.
The stock looks Bad right now!, as when I took the screws out, one little bird and one flower fell out and need putting back.
The 'elephant ' on the underside of the buttstock has only his trunk remaining!, as someone put a large wood -screw where he used to be!
Will plug that old wound (screw split the stock worse than before it was applied) and put a new 'elephant' on the trunk. :-)
Needs a buttplate as half was putty.. Fortunately I have some black water-buffalo horn so that will suffice.

More as and when.
Thanks for comments on Omani thread. will reply soon. :-)

Richard.

Hi Richard.

BARREL BANDS: Yes, as you mentioned, I've seen everything used. Brass, iron, rattan, leather, wire, everything. LOL.
BUTT PLATE: Yes, that black water buffalo should work fine.
By the way, if you need any bone to make new inlays, I have some pre-aged , yellowed camel bone from a period Algerain long gun if it helps.

So sorry to hear about the stock. It's frustraiting when you get something someone else tried to crudely repair and didn't know what they were doing.

BUT !! The barrel being cylinder bore is great news !!!!

Rick.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Please pardon the trisula of posts!. .. :-)

For the sake of clarity, I wanted to keep these photos separate from the last post.
They are of toradors, almost certainly from the Jaipur court, to show more examples of this type. Even down to the badly done engraving and the same pierced trigger!
The last example may be earlier or later, as it has no trisula on the barrel But! It depicts Siva holding a trisula so the same idea is present.

Hi Richard.

Just noticed something in these last photos you posted. The second photo from the top: Notice the round hole on the right, upper rear of the stock. Similar to the two photos below. One is on my gun, the other from a pic I Googled up. The hole is intentioal. But I have no idea what it was for (?) But I've seen this on others, and it's always on the right side. Any ideas ?

Thanks, Rick.

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

I am pleased you mentioned the hole in the rear of the breech-block.
I had meant to mention this and kept forgetting it!

It is for snuffing the match.
You will note than none of the arms with this hole have a match -snuffer on the side of the stock.
This is another point that ties all this type together.
It appears All these from Jaipur with the same decoration (or similar) have this match -hole. I must check, but believe it may be unique to Jaipur arms.
(Though not All Jaipur arms)

Very interesting! At least to yourself and myself, lol!

Edited to add;
My matchlock here also has that hole, (Didn't know if you could see it in any photos here)
Also,
Don't worry about the stock! It's well on the way repair -wise. I have photos to attach as soon as I get at it!
The horn for buttplate is from a Red Cylonese water buffalo, so quite apt.

Thanks for the offer of bone, but I have a good supply of old bone from the muskeg here on the farm, all a bit old and stained. Just need a few tiny pieces for missing inlay, though I do not want to replace quite all of it.

More soon Rick!

Richard.
And, edited to add first pics of repair to the stock.
After initial glueing I drilled two holes from the butt end up a few inches past the break, and inserted metal rods . I like to use wood pegs, but in this case the metal rods will add more rigidity.
As you can see, there are great big pieces of wood missing in some areas!
Added Wood pegs where the old screws were as well.
You can see there is not much left of the bottom inlay, just the elephant's trunk! Not sure how this looked originally, as most such emblems look like a ball with a trumpet, and this one had no large circular part adjoining. ...