Mughal? or Indian dagger?.

donsamadhi · 9th November 2016, 04:37 PM

Hello
I`m writing to ask you for an identification of the dagger. Probably it comes from the period of the Mughal Empire`rule but I`m not sure, it`s a specific item. The hilt is made from jadeit and the carved motifs on it are specific too. I have never seen something like that before. Or maybe it was made as another turistic souvenir?It`s difficult to say and the blade looks as it had been used before. It is incrusted with silver and contains some symbols perhaps Islamic . Please for more information.

Best regards,
Alex.

ALEX · 14th November 2016, 10:40 AM

Hello Alex,
Your suspicion is correct, it is a "touristic souvenir". It is not Mughal. The hilt is Asian (could be Chinese), the blade looks like cut from sheet metal, not forged. In my opinion this is more a fantasy item rather than anything particular or authentic.

Roland_M · 14th November 2016, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Hello Alex,
Your suspicion is correct, it is a "touristic souvenir".

A touristic souvenir with a jade hilt, are you sure? The hilt seems handmade without machine driven tools and the corrosion on the blade looks old.

But I'm just a collector, not an expert and for my eyes the pictures are not good enough for a proper statement.

Some macro-pictures would be useful.

Best wishes,
Roland

Battara · 14th November 2016, 04:13 PM

I too thought that it was a tourist or export item when I saw this. I agree with Alex.

ALEX · 14th November 2016, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

A touristic souvenir with a jade hilt, are you sure? The hilt seems handmade without machine driven tools and the corrosion on the blade looks old.

But I'm just a collector, not an expert and for my eyes the pictures are not good enough for a proper statement.

Some macro-pictures would be useful.

Best wishes,
Roland

Hello Roland,
The hilt material does not look jade at all (i.e. nephrite jade), and the work actually does look machine made and very crude. There are tons of jade/jadeite/quartz daggers currently being produced in India.
The blade could look old, but if it is cut of sheet metal - the look is irrelevant.
The form is actually of Turkish kard (very vainly), but nothing is right about this one. Here's the proper SAMPLE

donsamadhi · 14th November 2016, 11:04 PM

Hello,

I see, there are different opinions. So, I will try to give you more details. First of all , the blade is not made from the sheet metal!

it is double edged blade made from resilient and quenched steel and it gives beautiful sound. It was etched from deep corrosion which covered it in the whole. That`s why it has got dark a bit.But the incrustation before was completely invisible. The blade is not flat at all, as it seems to be on the photos, but it is slightly cylindrical and it narrows to the edges. The carving on the hilt is not done mechanically, for sure! The specialist from minerals and rocks said that it was hand-made. He also claims that it has to be an old work because of the detrition which can be seen with the naked eye. Unfortunately , the photos don`t show it. It is jadeite for sure (so called jade) the scratch is white and the hardness points that it isn`t a nephrite, it is rare and worth. The problem is from what culture and period it comes from. I couldn`t find information about. The motifs are very original and unusual.
Tomorrow, I will give you more photos with high definition. I hope they will show much more to confirm what I`ve written above. It is difficult to take a good photo of it because it fades away, that`s why some attached photos have bigger contrast to show better the carving.
Thank you for your interests,
Alex.

Oliver Pinchot · 15th November 2016, 02:48 AM

The blade is Ottoman from the beginning of the 20th century. The grip, whatever stone it is, is Persian work of the 1940s or 50s. It is what collectors call a "married" piece, i.e. two parts wedded together from disparate origins. These are often sold in bazaars and suqs in the Middle East and environs.

mariusgmioc · 15th November 2016, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donsamadhi

Hello,

The carving on the hilt is not done mechanically, for sure! The specialist from minerals and rocks said that it was hand-made.
Alex.

Hand-made... maybe in the sense that the electrical rotating tool that was used to make it was held in the hand.

Examine the grooves and engravings on the hilt under 10x magnification. If they have a circular cross-section, they are machined with a hand-held electric tool. If they have a crisp, triangular cross-section, they are carved/chiseled with a chisel.

But in the end we all believe what we want to believe.

ALEX · 15th November 2016, 12:55 PM

Oliver,
I never stop learning from you and being amazed by the depth of your knowledge. Thank you for that!

Marius,
Likewise, thanks for clarifying hand/machine made. This is also what I meant by that it seems made with electrical hand-held rotating tool opposite to archaic or antique carving.

mariusgmioc · 15th November 2016, 02:59 PM

While, it is dificult to say from the photos, the material might be Onyx, which is found in abundance in Anatolia. The green or whitish varieties of Onyx not only look exactly like Jade, but also feel like jade to the touch and can be extremely misleading. I have seen also glass immitations of Jade that are extremely difficult to distinguish from real Jade (but those I have seen so far only in Chinese "jade" products).

donsamadhi · 17th November 2016, 08:48 PM

Hello,
I attached better photos which shows that it wasn`t done mechanically

I think that Olivier`s opinion is the best, probably it was made as he said , from two different pieces of daggers. But is it a touristic souvenir??

Thank you all for your opinions, I`m waiting for more.
Alex

donsamadhi · 17th November 2016, 08:53 PM

The shape of blade.

donsamadhi · 17th November 2016, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

A touristic souvenir with a jade hilt, are you sure? The hilt seems handmade without machine driven tools and the corrosion on the blade looks old.

But I'm just a collector, not an expert and for my eyes the pictures are not good enough for a proper statement.

Some macro-pictures would be useful.

Best wishes,
Roland

And of course you Roland

Best regards.

mariusgmioc · 18th November 2016, 11:36 AM

Thank you for the additional photos!

Certainly very poorly machine milled. No doubts about that.

Also pretty sure it is Onyx, very abundant in central Turkey.

Sorry!

mariusgmioc · 18th November 2016, 12:00 PM

You may want o have a look at my posting regarding Jade/Onyx in the Ethnographic Miscellania section of this forum.

donsamadhi · 20th November 2016, 10:22 PM

Hello,

I respect your opinion Marius ,the expert of minerals was thinking about the jade and bovenit. Finally he said that this is jade. The signs points to the use of simple tools, but there are some doubts. I see that nobody else wanted to comment that

Everyone can be wrong only by looking at photos. I always rely on the opinions of the other people. Thank you.

Best Regards,
Alex

ALEX · 21st November 2016, 10:55 AM

Some experts call any green stone a jade, including green quartz, jadeite, etc. It depends what definition they use. "Real" jade is referred to as Nephrite, and can contain some quartz. You may see
THIS LINK

mariusgmioc · 21st November 2016, 09:40 PM

1. Why am I pretty sure it is not Jade (Nephrite or Jadeite)?!
1.1 Jade was and is in big demand and commands rather high prices. Therefore, it is used on valuable pieces of certain artistic value and not wasted on "tourist" items.
2. Why am I pretty sure it is Onyx?!
1.1 Onyx of precisely this coulour is found in abundance in central Anatolia and comes very cheap.
1.2 Onyx is charaterised in that it has a layered structure with parallel layers (see the photo of the horse) which can be easily identified also in the hilt (see the first three photos). Albeit I have seen pieces of up to 3 centimetres thick without any discernable layer.
3. Why am I pretty sure it was machined with a rotary tool?!
1.1 The grooves have circular cross-section and display transverse parallel traces of the rotating tool (see photos 5 and 6).
1.2 The entry/exit point of the tool is round (see last photo).
But I am definitely not an expert.

Battara · 23rd November 2016, 12:48 AM

I must also add that the motifs and style of carvings on the hilt are not typically Mughal. Closest I have seen are more related to Persian, but the quality of the carving again is not like that found in Persian ivory hilts (albeit a softer material).

I must also agree with the possibility of dremel tool work looking at the micro-pictures.

kai · 23rd November 2016, 02:31 AM

I'm also with Marius et al. - clear signs of modern tools (and low quality work, sorry).

Regards,
Kai

mariusgmioc · 23rd November 2016, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I must also add that the motifs and style of carvings on the hilt are not typically Mughal. Closest I have seen are more related to Persian, but the quality of the carving again is not like that found in Persian ivory hilts (albeit a softer material).

I must also agree with the possibility of dremel tool work looking at the micro-pictures.

As Oliver pointed out, the blade looks rather typical Turkish made and the decorations on the hilt look Persian style, yet, they are quite different from the genuine Persian works.

The blade also looks rather thin and flat like cut from sheet/band stock steel and not forged.

So I would bet on Turkish origin, attempting to immitate Persian style.

donsamadhi · 1st January 2017, 05:56 PM

Dzięki wszystkim za komentarze i pozdrawiam,
Alex

Hello everybody

I see there are a few comments since I last was here. I have to say that it is unlikely that there is some using of tools type dremel. The hilt was made at the latest time 1945-1948 and it is solid information. I think there could be used some rotary tools but I doubt they were powered by electricity. The stone is rather the bowenit and for sure it isn`t an onyx.
Thank you for all comments.
Best regards.
Alex

ariel · 2nd January 2017, 04:49 PM

I think Oliver was, as usual, very polite and generous. The silvery decoration on the blade looks very "Syrian" to me. The blade /tang transition ( shoulders) are not even straight, with a gap at the point of insertion. The carvings are crude and, IMHO, made with Dremel tool. On that I am in complete accord with Marius and Battara.
My 5 cents worth is that it is a pretty crude and unprofessionally-made tourist item made somewhere in the Middle East within the past 10 years. Turkey and Syria come to mind in the very first row of candidates.

iskender · 2nd January 2017, 06:12 PM

" die hoffnung stirbt zuletzt" crude translation "hope is the last to die" iskender

donsamadhi · 3rd January 2017, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think Oliver was, as usual, very polite and generous. The silvery decoration on the blade looks very "Syrian" to me. The blade /tang transition ( shoulders) are not even straight, with a gap at the point of insertion. The carvings are crude and, IMHO, made with Dremel tool. On that I am in complete accord with Marius and Battara.
My 5 cents worth is that it is a pretty crude and unprofessionally-made tourist item made somewhere in the Middle East within the past 10 years. Turkey and Syria come to mind in the very first row of candidates.

I wonder why you are convinced of this dremel. The subject was lying for 50 years in one of the houses. I have total confidence! I know successor, the owner has been dead for 30 years. I observe the suggestion of a little discouraging ;/

9th November 2016, 04:37 PM	#1
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Mughal? or Indian dagger?. Hello I`m writing to ask you for an identification of the dagger. Probably it comes from the period of the Mughal Empire`rule but I`m not sure, it`s a specific item. The hilt is made from jadeit and the carved motifs on it are specific too. I have never seen something like that before. Or maybe it was made as another turistic souvenir?It`s difficult to say and the blade looks as it had been used before. It is incrusted with silver and contains some symbols perhaps Islamic . Please for more information. Best regards, Alex. Attached Images

17th November 2016, 08:48 PM	#11
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Extra photos. Hello, I attached better photos which shows that it wasn`t done mechanically I think that Olivier`s opinion is the best, probably it was made as he said , from two different pieces of daggers. But is it a touristic souvenir?? Thank you all for your opinions, I`m waiting for more. Alex Attached Images

17th November 2016, 08:53 PM	#12
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Blade. The shape of blade. Attached Images

18th November 2016, 11:36 AM	#14
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you for the additional photos! Certainly very poorly machine milled. No doubts about that. Also pretty sure it is Onyx, very abundant in central Turkey. Sorry! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 18th November 2016 at 02:56 PM.

18th November 2016, 12:00 PM	#15
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	You may want o have a look at my posting regarding Jade/Onyx in the Ethnographic Miscellania section of this forum. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th November 2016 at 10:45 AM.

14th November 2016, 10:40 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Hello Alex, Your suspicion is correct, it is a "touristic souvenir". It is not Mughal. The hilt is Asian (could be Chinese), the blade looks like cut from sheet metal, not forged. In my opinion this is more a fantasy item rather than anything particular or authentic.

14th November 2016, 04:13 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I too thought that it was a tourist or export item when I saw this. I agree with Alex.

14th November 2016, 11:04 PM	#6
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Hello, I see, there are different opinions. So, I will try to give you more details. First of all , the blade is not made from the sheet metal! it is double edged blade made from resilient and quenched steel and it gives beautiful sound. It was etched from deep corrosion which covered it in the whole. That`s why it has got dark a bit.But the incrustation before was completely invisible. The blade is not flat at all, as it seems to be on the photos, but it is slightly cylindrical and it narrows to the edges. The carving on the hilt is not done mechanically, for sure! The specialist from minerals and rocks said that it was hand-made. He also claims that it has to be an old work because of the detrition which can be seen with the naked eye. Unfortunately , the photos don`t show it. It is jadeite for sure (so called jade) the scratch is white and the hardness points that it isn`t a nephrite, it is rare and worth. The problem is from what culture and period it comes from. I couldn`t find information about. The motifs are very original and unusual. Tomorrow, I will give you more photos with high definition. I hope they will show much more to confirm what I`ve written above. It is difficult to take a good photo of it because it fades away, that`s why some attached photos have bigger contrast to show better the carving. Thank you for your interests, Alex.

15th November 2016, 02:48 AM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	The blade is Ottoman from the beginning of the 20th century. The grip, whatever stone it is, is Persian work of the 1940s or 50s. It is what collectors call a "married" piece, i.e. two parts wedded together from disparate origins. These are often sold in bazaars and suqs in the Middle East and environs.

15th November 2016, 12:55 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Oliver, I never stop learning from you and being amazed by the depth of your knowledge. Thank you for that! Marius, Likewise, thanks for clarifying hand/machine made. This is also what I meant by that it seems made with electrical hand-held rotating tool opposite to archaic or antique carving.

15th November 2016, 02:59 PM	#10
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	While, it is dificult to say from the photos, the material might be Onyx, which is found in abundance in Anatolia. The green or whitish varieties of Onyx not only look exactly like Jade, but also feel like jade to the touch and can be extremely misleading. I have seen also glass immitations of Jade that are extremely difficult to distinguish from real Jade (but those I have seen so far only in Chinese "jade" products).

20th November 2016, 10:22 PM	#16
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Hello, I respect your opinion Marius ,the expert of minerals was thinking about the jade and bovenit. Finally he said that this is jade. The signs points to the use of simple tools, but there are some doubts. I see that nobody else wanted to comment that Everyone can be wrong only by looking at photos. I always rely on the opinions of the other people. Thank you. Best Regards, Alex

21st November 2016, 10:55 AM	#17
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Some experts call any green stone a jade, including green quartz, jadeite, etc. It depends what definition they use. "Real" jade is referred to as Nephrite, and can contain some quartz. You may see THIS LINK

21st November 2016, 09:40 PM	#18
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	1. Why am I pretty sure it is not Jade (Nephrite or Jadeite)?! 1.1 Jade was and is in big demand and commands rather high prices. Therefore, it is used on valuable pieces of certain artistic value and not wasted on "tourist" items. 2. Why am I pretty sure it is Onyx?! 1.1 Onyx of precisely this coulour is found in abundance in central Anatolia and comes very cheap. 1.2 Onyx is charaterised in that it has a layered structure with parallel layers (see the photo of the horse) which can be easily identified also in the hilt (see the first three photos). Albeit I have seen pieces of up to 3 centimetres thick without any discernable layer. 3. Why am I pretty sure it was machined with a rotary tool?! 1.1 The grooves have circular cross-section and display transverse parallel traces of the rotating tool (see photos 5 and 6). 1.2 The entry/exit point of the tool is round (see last photo). But I am definitely not an expert. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st November 2016 at 09:52 PM.

23rd November 2016, 12:48 AM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I must also add that the motifs and style of carvings on the hilt are not typically Mughal. Closest I have seen are more related to Persian, but the quality of the carving again is not like that found in Persian ivory hilts (albeit a softer material). I must also agree with the possibility of dremel tool work looking at the micro-pictures.

23rd November 2016, 02:31 AM	#20
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	I'm also with Marius et al. - clear signs of modern tools (and low quality work, sorry). Regards, Kai

1st January 2017, 05:56 PM	#22
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Happy New Year! :) Dzięki wszystkim za komentarze i pozdrawiam, Alex Hello everybody I see there are a few comments since I last was here. I have to say that it is unlikely that there is some using of tools type dremel. The hilt was made at the latest time 1945-1948 and it is solid information. I think there could be used some rotary tools but I doubt they were powered by electricity. The stone is rather the bowenit and for sure it isn`t an onyx. Thank you for all comments. Best regards. Alex

2nd January 2017, 04:49 PM	#23
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think Oliver was, as usual, very polite and generous. The silvery decoration on the blade looks very "Syrian" to me. The blade /tang transition ( shoulders) are not even straight, with a gap at the point of insertion. The carvings are crude and, IMHO, made with Dremel tool. On that I am in complete accord with Marius and Battara. My 5 cents worth is that it is a pretty crude and unprofessionally-made tourist item made somewhere in the Middle East within the past 10 years. Turkey and Syria come to mind in the very first row of candidates.

2nd January 2017, 06:12 PM	#24
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	according to a popular saying ! " die hoffnung stirbt zuletzt" crude translation "hope is the last to die" iskender