Toledo or Solingen marks

[mariusgmioc]

Just discovered that my Rapier has on each side of the ricasso, inside the cup of the hilt, a mark.

Can anybody please help me identify this mark?!

Regards,

Marius

PS: It is the TOLEDO XX HEINRICH XX BRACH rapier.

[Jim McDougall]

Apparantly there are Brach's in Solingen latter 16th century, an Arnold 1573-1640 and Jacob c 1600. Some of their work has the crowned T (=Toledo) applied spuriously to allude to manufacture there.

There was a Johannes Brach who went from Solingen to Toledo in 1620s along with a number of Solingen smiths. His son Heinrich was in Solingen and producing swords in the first half 17th c . according to some references but in one German reference stating later into early 18th.

A swept hilt rapier stated to be Saxon and of pre 1650 is inscribed HEINRICH BRACH on both sides of blade and with crowned king both sides was seen at auction in 2014.

With that supporting the probable earlier period for Heinrich, and a rapier of German form suggests that he was indeed in Solingen rather than Toledo as inscribed on the blade of this rapier. He would not be producing German style rapiers in Toledo.

One of the Solingen smiths who went to Toledo also, was Johann Hans Ohlig c 1620-50 and along with crowns kings head, he was known to use a crowned 'Moors head' as well .
In Solingen, Peter Munsten zu Elberfeld c 1552-1628 used variations of uncrowned Moors heads.

It would seem plausible that the indiscernible marking on the blade of this rapier may be a Moors head, and with the well known purloining of marks used in Toledo as well as in Solingen, that this Spanish type example (Norman #83; Valentine 35,36) might have been made by HEINRICH BRACH in Solingen .
The TOLEDO added to the name possibly to further enhance the sword to Spanish market with others such as by ENRIQUE COLL (Heinrich Koll) et al .

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you Jim for your assistance!
Many Solingen blades ended up in Spanish mountings for the Spanish market and this might be very well one of them. However, it isn't unfathomable that Heinrich Brach accompanied his father to Toledo and worked with him there. Do you know where can I find some information about Johannes Brach and his visit to Toledo?
Struggling to learn the whole history of a blade is interesting and frustrating at the same time as you have only very few pieces of the puzzle and from there you have to guess the whole thing.

[cornelistromp]

see post 19 for the mens head mark in

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13339


best
jasper

[fernando]

How is your Spanish (Castillian) Marius ?
Apparently when looking for info on Brach members having been in Toledo, there is no immediate result but, instead, one finds that this was rather a numerous family... amazingly all sword smiths.
Here is a shortened description of a few swords in exhibition in the Museum of Fine Arts of Seville:

54 Espada ... Lugar de fabricación: Alemania. Cronología: siglo XVII ...La hoja es de cua - tro mesas, acanalada en su primer quinto y lleva las siguientes inscripciones a cada lado: «IACOBO BRACH // IN ALEMANIA».

60 Espada ... Lugar de fabricación: Toledo. Cronología: siglo XVII... Tiene las siguientes inscripciones: «CIELES XX BRACH XX ME FECIT // CIELES XX BRACH XX SOLINGEN». Este espadero pertenece a una afamada familia de espaderos alemanes de la que destacan, además, Conradt, Enrich y Jacobo.

65 Espada ...Lugar de fabricación: Alemania. Cronología: siglo XVII...La hoja es de dos mesas, acanalada en su primer cuarto con la siguiente inscripción: «ARNOLDI xx BRACH xx SOLINGEN».

67 Espada ... Lugar de fabricación: Alemania. Cronología: 1665...La hoja es de cuatro mesas, acanalada en sus primeros diecinueve centímetros y con la siguiente inscripción: «IRASCIMINI NOLIT P CCAR // ARNOLDT . BRACH . 1665».

Here is the whole catalogue:

http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultu...ACSE_armas.pdf

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by fernando

How is your Spanish (Castillian) Marius ?

Here is the whole catalogue:

http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultu...ACSE_armas.pdf

Hola Fernando,

Puedo entender espanol bastante bien.

This catalogue is a tresure trove. Thank you very much!

I think the following phrase on page 90 might illustrate the case of my rapier:

"En Solingen se reprodujeron muchas de las hojas toledanas, incluidas sus marcas e inscripciones, replicadas generalmente con deficiente ortografía. Incluso en las armas netamente españolas, hemos de ser precavidos con las marcas a la hora de adjudicarles un autor."

In Solingen were reproduced many of the Toledo blades, including their marks and inscriptions, generally replicated with poor spelling. Even in purely Spanish weapons, we have to be wary of brands when it comes to awarding an author.

Muchas gracias!

PS: Still the punch mark doesn't seem to resemble any of the Toledo marks illustrated in the catalogue, neither the head mark on Jasper's rapier. So still looking.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... Muchas gracias!

Graag gedaan .

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you Jasper fot the head stamp. (and envious congratulatuions for your rapier )

I am considering cleaning strictly the stamp areas so I can get a hopefully better and clearer view of the stamp.

Do you think it is a good idea?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

How is your Spanish (Castillian) Marius ?
Apparently when looking for info on Brach members having been in Toledo, there is no immediate result but, instead, one finds that this was rather a numerous family... amazingly all sword smiths.
Here is a shortened description of a few swords in exhibition in the Museum of Fine Arts of Seville:

54 Espada ... Lugar de fabricación: Alemania. Cronología: siglo XVII ...La hoja es de cua - tro mesas, acanalada en su primer quinto y lleva las siguientes inscripciones a cada lado: «IACOBO BRACH // IN ALEMANIA».

60 Espada ... Lugar de fabricación: Toledo. Cronología: siglo XVII... Tiene las siguientes inscripciones: «CIELES XX BRACH XX ME FECIT // CIELES XX BRACH XX SOLINGEN». Este espadero pertenece a una afamada familia de espaderos alemanes de la que destacan, además, Conradt, Enrich y Jacobo.

65 Espada ...Lugar de fabricación: Alemania. Cronología: siglo XVII...La hoja es de dos mesas, acanalada en su primer cuarto con la siguiente inscripción: «ARNOLDI xx BRACH xx SOLINGEN».

67 Espada ... Lugar de fabricación: Alemania. Cronología: 1665...La hoja es de cuatro mesas, acanalada en sus primeros diecinueve centímetros y con la siguiente inscripción: «IRASCIMINI NOLIT P CCAR // ARNOLDT . BRACH . 1665».

Here is the whole catalogue:

http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultu...ACSE_armas.pdf

Fernando, thank you so much for this valuable data!!!
Definitely adding to my notes, and I am adding to my notes. Those resources over there you always share are priceless.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando, thank you so much for this valuable data!!!
Definitely adding to my notes, and I am adding to my notes. Those resources over there you always share are priceless.

Always at your disposal, Jim .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

see post 19 for the mens head mark in

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13339


best
jasper

Jasper,
Thank you so much for this input on the 'men head'.I was looking for kings heads and Moors heads but without that term could not find this. The image of this mark from Solingen I recall seeing in Gyngell (as shown) but again had not thought of it.

*I accidentally edited instead of quoting in previous entry.

Jim

[Jim McDougall]

In other research, passim, I just came across an interesting aside here.
Apparantly the term 'brock' was used for the bog iron used in Solingen, and whether by design or coincidence one of the 'old' sword making families in Solingen was that of the name BRACH.

[mariusgmioc]

At position 81 of the Sevillan museum (see the link from Fernando's posting) is a rapier by Heinrich Brach with a very similar blade.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In other research, passim, I just came across an interesting aside here.
Apparantly the term 'brock' was used for the bog iron used in Solingen, and whether by design or coincidence one of the 'old' sword making families in Solingen was that of the name BRACH.

It may be a pure coincidence but I think that in this case is more than that. Many old European family names, in different languages and cultures, derive from a profession that was practiced by an earlier patriarch of the family (like Smith or Miller for example) . So I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case with the Brach's as well.

PS: At position 81 in the catalogue of the Sevillan museum is a rapier by Heinrich Brach.

[Triarii]

Resurrecting this thread after a Google search.

I've acquired an early C17th English riding sword (pictures when I've cleaned it up a bit) with a 33" backsword blade. Very similar hilt to the swords attributed to Governors John Carver and John Thompson held in Pilgrim Hall, Massachusetts and one held in The Commandery, Worcester, UK.

The double fullered blade is stamped IOHANNES BRACH with the familiar anchor symbol in each fuller and across the fullers ANNO 1614.

Does anyone have any information on him - presumably properly spelt Johannes Brach. He's mentioned in passing in the Wallace Collection guide regarding a sword held elsewhere but nothing else.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Triarii

Resurrecting this thread after a Google search.

I've acquired an early C17th English riding sword (pictures when I've cleaned it up a bit) with a 33" backsword blade. Very similar hilt to the swords attributed to Governors John Carver and John Thompson held in Pilgrim Hall, Massachusetts and one held in The Commandery, Worcester, UK.

The double fullered blade is stamped IOHANNES BRACH with the familiar anchor symbol in each fuller and across the fullers ANNO 1614.

Does anyone have any information on him - presumably properly spelt Johannes Brach. He's mentioned in passing in the Wallace Collection guide regarding a sword held elsewhere but nothing else.

Can you post pics of this sword. Sounds interesting.
In my post #2 it seems I mentioned a Johannes Brach of this family from c.1620s+ so would be in proper time period.

[Triarii]

Some photos. I've been busy cleaning it up today so more when its finished.

[fernando]

A truly valuable sword indeed. No smith's mark ?

[dralin23]

hello

I also found an interesting sword a few months ago. A Shiavona sword has been on my wish list for a long time but if possible I wanted to find one that was stamped with a forge mark and preferably with a Solingen blade.
This sword has a beautiful basket handle from the early 17th century. and interestingly it is signed "Francesco"
"en toleto" and in addition the Solingen running wolf is struck on the blade in the usual form (upside down to the writing). So now the question is where was this blade really made? Was it a Solingen blacksmith who emigrated to Toledo and he traditionally put the running wolf into the blade or was it a Solingen blacksmith in Solingen who wanted to increase the value of his blade by missigning it as a blade from a blacksmith from the famous Toledo This can certainly be discussed for a long time or does someone have a similar blade in their collection so that one could assign this to "Franceco" from Toledo. I'm really looking forward to your answer.

[fernando]

Dralin, do i read Francisco and not Francesco ? . There are eight Franciscos listed in Toledan Palomares Nomina, but i am not suggesting that any of the them would be your smith. Remember, the personal marks they used were found on the blade (their art) and not on the guard. Still, can you enlarge that one ?


.

[dralin23]

hello ferando,
yes thats right the smith signed as "francisco" i will try to make an better pictures from this small mark at the hilt.

[dralin23]

With these Shiavona swords just like with some other sword types such as: All sorts of blades were used on the Scottish swords and also the Indian Firanghi swords and of course everyone wanted to have a blade from a famous blacksmith mounted in their sword. Andrea Ferrara must have worked for hundreds of years to produce the thousands of blades that bear his name.
I think this "Francisco" who made the blade for my sword was a Solingen blacksmith in Solingen who signed a Spanish-sounding name in order to be able to sell his blades better... because the Solingen blacksmiths who went to Toledo like Heinrich Coll
They didn't give up their last name and the blacksmiths from the well-known and famous Solingen blacksmith families were also proud of their blades and their names. So this blacksmith wasn't from a large and traditional family, I think...and I don't know how "Toledo" used to be in the 17th century. was written... but I've never seen it written in this for "TOLETO"... maybe you?

[fernando]

Suppose literate smiths would favor the early Latin term TOLETUM . TOLETO is obviously a misspell .

[dralin23]

hello fernado
I took a close-up of the two stamps that are on the basket of the handle.
But I think if you don't have a reference object, then you can't decipher them, they have become too unclear due to their age and use.
thank you, stefan

[dralin23]

the pictures ....

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dralin23

... But I think if you don't have a reference object, then you can't decipher them, they have become too unclear due to their age and use...

Sure thing, Stefan. Thanks anyhow.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by dralin23

hello fernado
I took a close-up of the two stamps that are on the basket of the handle.
But I think if you don't have a reference object, then you can't decipher them, they have become too unclear due to their age and use.
thank you, stefan

Presumably it’s the Lion of St.Mark, the mark of the Venetian Arsenale. See post #20: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=storta.

[dralin23]

yes i think also thats could be an venetian arsenal mark or maybe an mark from the hiltmaker....

[fernando]

Well, obviously one or the other .