Kris in Hawaii

sheslittletex · 30th October 2016, 05:22 AM

I am looking for some clues about #25 in the photo with 2 items and the photo with a single item. These are in a collection of weapons that had been individually confiscated by a Sheriff in a Plantation community in the first part of the 20th century. I am assuming they came with Filipino immigrants, or were made in Hawaii after their arrival. I would love to hear what others have to offer.

Ian · 30th October 2016, 03:38 PM

Hello littletex:

Welcome to the Forum.

I think both the knives you show in #25 and the one in #49 are from the Philippines, more specifically from the main island of Luzon. Although you show two wavy-bladed daggers, they are not truly kris but were daggers made either by Ilocanos in northern Luzon or possibly by Moros in the Sulu Archipelago where they would be called gunong. I think the Moro attribution is less likely. Also, the other knife you show in #25, with a clipped blade, is certainly from Luzon (central or northern Luzon in style). These all look as though they were made in the late 19th or early 20th C. They would have been inexpensive weapons owned by peasants, but quite capable of causing a nasty wound.

Given that Hawaii and the Philippines came under direct U.S. rule at much the same time at the end of the 19th C., it is perhaps not surprising that Filipinos ended up in Hawaii shortly thereafter. There is a sizeable population of Filipinos there today, notably Ilocanos from the northernmost areas of Luzon.

My best suggestion for your examples is that these are all Ilocano knives that accompanied Filipino workers/immigrants to the Hawaii islands in the early 20th C.

Ian

Battara · 30th October 2016, 09:42 PM

I'm with Ian. Very typical of these regions and the time period.

Sajen · 30th October 2016, 10:00 PM

Agree with Jose and Ian!

sheslittletex · 30th October 2016, 10:05 PM

Thanks Ian and Battara. Some great information. Do you happen to know of any literature/references you can point me towards? I live in Hawaii in the area that these were collected, and I am putting together archaeological research on these two and several other items confiscated by the 'then' Sheriff. I have started from ground zero, with no background knowledge at all, so your input is appreciated.

Battara · 31st October 2016, 03:26 AM

I suggest these:

search this forum
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...troduction.htm
Moro Swords by Cato

sheslittletex · 31st October 2016, 04:32 AM

Thanks for the suggestions! Looks like the Cato book is a hard one to get a hold of. Its not in the library here, and no ebook anywhere. The website you sent the link for is great.

sheslittletex · 31st October 2016, 06:45 AM

Does it appear that these may have been hand forged, possibly after the Filipino immigrants arrived in Hawaii, using whatever the could find. I say this because I noticed that the Gunongs seem to mostly have a curved pommel (not sure if that is the right term) and the two in our collection are very straight and crude looking.

Battara · 31st October 2016, 07:29 PM

You are quite welcome. You may have to do an interlibrary loan for Cato's book. It is out of print and had limited copies made. Also , Cato's book is missing some things that are also mentioned on this forum, like gunongs, other blade forms, etc.

You will find a lot of information on this forum that exists perhaps no where else in past threads.

What I gave you is only a bare start. Good hunting.

VANDOO · 1st November 2016, 12:16 AM

THIS GRADE OF EDGED WEAPON WAS NO DOUBT COMMON IN THE PHILIPPINES AND CARRIED BY THOSE WITH LITTLE MONEY AS A WORK KNIFE AND WEAPON. WE SELDOM SEE THEM ON THE FORUM BECAUSE COLLECTORS WANT THE BETTER GRADE WEAPONS WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES. THE SMALL ONE WITH THE WAVY BLADE WAS LIKELY FOR PROTECTION NOT WORK AND I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS A GUNONG AKA PUNAL. THE LARGER ONE IS LIKELY A FORM OF MATULIS . I HAVE SEEN A FEW PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS OF THIS SIMPLE QUALITY OVER THE YEARS BUT THEY ARE NOT COMMONLY COLLECTED.
NO DOUBT THESE WERE CONFISCATED BECAUSE OF SOME TROUBLE IF THE SHERIFFS RECORDS COULD BE FOUND IT MIGHT MAKE AN INTERESTING STORY. PERHAPS (THE PHILIPPINE TONG'S OF HAWAII)

#1 & #2. MATULIS
#3. CHART WITH SEVERAL PHILIPPINE EDGED WEAPONS.

sheslittletex · 1st November 2016, 12:38 AM

Thanks Vandoo. I agree, these are not even close to the shiny bells and whistle variety that collectors like. I think that will make the story even better. The sheriff records are not to be had, but Im attempting to write the story from the archaeological evidence. The immigrants here in Hawaii have quite a tale to tell and these weapons will add to it. Thanks for the info on the gunong/punal and Itak. I still think that there is a strong likelihood that they were made here, by the carrier, in a style reminiscent of his homeland. Hanging on to culture.

30th October 2016, 10:05 PM	#5
sheslittletex Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5	Thanks Ian and Battara. Some great information. Do you happen to know of any literature/references you can point me towards? I live in Hawaii in the area that these were collected, and I am putting together archaeological research on these two and several other items confiscated by the 'then' Sheriff. I have started from ground zero, with no background knowledge at all, so your input is appreciated. Last edited by sheslittletex; 31st October 2016 at 12:35 AM.

31st October 2016, 03:26 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I suggest these: search this forum http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...troduction.htm Moro Swords by Cato

1st November 2016, 12:16 AM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS GRADE OF EDGED WEAPON WAS NO DOUBT COMMON IN THE PHILIPPINES AND CARRIED BY THOSE WITH LITTLE MONEY AS A WORK KNIFE AND WEAPON. WE SELDOM SEE THEM ON THE FORUM BECAUSE COLLECTORS WANT THE BETTER GRADE WEAPONS WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES. THE SMALL ONE WITH THE WAVY BLADE WAS LIKELY FOR PROTECTION NOT WORK AND I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS A GUNONG AKA PUNAL. THE LARGER ONE IS LIKELY A FORM OF MATULIS . I HAVE SEEN A FEW PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS OF THIS SIMPLE QUALITY OVER THE YEARS BUT THEY ARE NOT COMMONLY COLLECTED. NO DOUBT THESE WERE CONFISCATED BECAUSE OF SOME TROUBLE IF THE SHERIFFS RECORDS COULD BE FOUND IT MIGHT MAKE AN INTERESTING STORY. PERHAPS (THE PHILIPPINE TONG'S OF HAWAII) #1 & #2. MATULIS #3. CHART WITH SEVERAL PHILIPPINE EDGED WEAPONS. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 1st November 2016 at 12:51 AM.

30th October 2016, 03:38 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Hello littletex: Welcome to the Forum. I think both the knives you show in #25 and the one in #49 are from the Philippines, more specifically from the main island of Luzon. Although you show two wavy-bladed daggers, they are not truly kris but were daggers made either by Ilocanos in northern Luzon or possibly by Moros in the Sulu Archipelago where they would be called gunong. I think the Moro attribution is less likely. Also, the other knife you show in #25, with a clipped blade, is certainly from Luzon (central or northern Luzon in style). These all look as though they were made in the late 19th or early 20th C. They would have been inexpensive weapons owned by peasants, but quite capable of causing a nasty wound. Given that Hawaii and the Philippines came under direct U.S. rule at much the same time at the end of the 19th C., it is perhaps not surprising that Filipinos ended up in Hawaii shortly thereafter. There is a sizeable population of Filipinos there today, notably Ilocanos from the northernmost areas of Luzon. My best suggestion for your examples is that these are all Ilocano knives that accompanied Filipino workers/immigrants to the Hawaii islands in the early 20th C. Ian

30th October 2016, 09:42 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I'm with Ian. Very typical of these regions and the time period.

30th October 2016, 10:00 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,770	Agree with Jose and Ian!

31st October 2016, 04:32 AM	#7
sheslittletex Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5	Thanks for the suggestions! Looks like the Cato book is a hard one to get a hold of. Its not in the library here, and no ebook anywhere. The website you sent the link for is great.

31st October 2016, 06:45 AM	#8
sheslittletex Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5	Does it appear that these may have been hand forged, possibly after the Filipino immigrants arrived in Hawaii, using whatever the could find. I say this because I noticed that the Gunongs seem to mostly have a curved pommel (not sure if that is the right term) and the two in our collection are very straight and crude looking.

31st October 2016, 07:29 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	You are quite welcome. You may have to do an interlibrary loan for Cato's book. It is out of print and had limited copies made. Also , Cato's book is missing some things that are also mentioned on this forum, like gunongs, other blade forms, etc. You will find a lot of information on this forum that exists perhaps no where else in past threads. What I gave you is only a bare start. Good hunting.

1st November 2016, 12:38 AM	#11
sheslittletex Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5	Thanks Vandoo. I agree, these are not even close to the shiny bells and whistle variety that collectors like. I think that will make the story even better. The sheriff records are not to be had, but Im attempting to write the story from the archaeological evidence. The immigrants here in Hawaii have quite a tale to tell and these weapons will add to it. Thanks for the info on the gunong/punal and Itak. I still think that there is a strong likelihood that they were made here, by the carrier, in a style reminiscent of his homeland. Hanging on to culture.