It’s a canon, but what sort?

[Cathey]

Hi guys

I am posting this for a friend who generally collects firearms curiosa; he picked up this small canon at a local auction and is looking for any assistance he can get with its identification etc.

What he would like to know is if it is a Mortar or a small Canon, age, nationality. Rex put the can of drink next to it to give an indication of size.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[kronckew]

looks like a swivel gun, or a small carronade for a ship's boat. is that a plaque on ithe top between the trunnions? any markings?

p.s. - it's 'cannon'

[CSinTX]

Would you happen to have a better close up picture of the muzzle? It looks like there may be a separation of metals around the edge?

The trunnions look to be a touch small for its size and are they tapered?

Overall, I think it looks good but just a few thoughts to clarify.

If original, I would guess late 18th C.

[M ELEY]

Wow! What a great piece! I believe Wayne nailed it with the swivel attribution. It would appear from the pics (hard to tell, though) that the trunnions are set lower on the gun, which they would be if it were truly a 'rail' piece and allowing for steep angling downwards. Brass and bronze guns were more resistant to the salt erosion of sea air. Nice find!! I'd beg on the street for a piece like this in my meager collection-

[Silver Shield]

IMA , had a googolplex of 18th century stuff they got out of Katmandu, in Nepal some years ago. This Cannon looks very similar to those short stubby 12lb cannons they had . Should have about a 5 inch bore ,. I know recycled cannon sold to Asia some times had markings covered or removed . The Bore reminds me of some guns that have a steel sleeve inserted into barrel to be safe to shoot . the bore face just looks like some bronze or other metal has been hammered over something to hide some feature . They sold for pretty good amount . I'm pretty sure that's what this Cannon is . IMA thought they where recycled Napoleonic naval guns , maybe the plate is hiding something as it is not a normal feature on guns of this kind . Small Carronade is what it is if European , but if Asian Cast .. just normal odd each one different kinda stuff .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This looks like a CARRONADE ...For some interesting reading please see https://johnsmachines.com/2016/05/11...e-vs-long-gun/

[kronckew]

here's a small one as i suggested earlier, on a model ships boat and a similar small cannon mounted as a swivel gun on lewis and clarke's boat. i note most carronades had their trunnions much lower on the barrel, some later ones actually under the barrel, possibly to let you target objects closer to the ship/boat as carronades were very close range weapons favoured by the UK, during the american revolution and war of 1812, but one reason the US could stand off beyond carronade range and pound them into submission.

[M ELEY]

Great pics, and pointing out the lower trunions I mentioned. The Lewis and Clark expedition had one of these types mounted at the front of their boats as they went on their quest, for discouraging attacks by tribal forces.

[M ELEY]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...72508139445437

[Silver Shield]

I think everybody here has added something here . I myself didn't remember the definition of a " Carronade " , that being a Royal Navy Cast Iron Cannon type that was made by Carron Ironworks in Falkirk Scotland , 1770s to 1850s . And certainly other cannons such as this one had the same basic low velocity large bore for length equation that had the same close range effect . After looking at samples .. and I'm pretty dense, for anyone can spew out Wikipedia data .Yes as has been said most likely a swivel gun. I never thought they came so short , but I saw one example half as long as this one . I just thought it was kinda fishy that the bore obviously had a soft metal like lead hammered down on it , you can see very clearly the surface separation, hammer marks and a edge that has been leftover and into the bore itself . You might contact IMAs they have sold similar Cannon, and I'm sure they could verify if it came from them. I know that some at Least Some Asian countries even used these type for Land and fortification use . Not all Asian cannon are crude .. but is way out of the area of my knowledge base , heck of a intruder defense system.

[kronckew]

just a small note on the nepal connection mentioned. i can see these being used as mountain pack howitzers, carried disassembled on pack animals into the mountanous regions like nepal where larger field guns would have been almost impossible to transport.

that said, the royal navy had on many occasions dismounted quite large ship's cannon and hauled them into seemingly impossible locations ashore into earthworks for defending headlands, river mouths, etc. - but not into 'the hindu kush'.

p.s. - the hammered plate may have been used to cover up military markings from a previous life, grinding them off would weaken the side walls.

p.p.s. - another note: the brits favoured carronades because they used them to great effect battling the french and their allies, they, like the brits would start with a long range cannonade, then quickly close within yards of the opposing ship and pound them into submission. the british carronades were faster to reload and threw an enormous ball or charge of grapeshot compared to the long guns, and this close pounding usually meant a british victory.

the USN simply danced around the brits and pounded the crud out of them well before closing to finish them off. the USS constitution (still in commission) was called old ironsides because british cannonballs were seen to bounce off her thick oak sides, i suspect those bounces were from the lower velocity carronades.

[NeilUK]

As Kronckew has implied, this gun may be a cannon, it is certainly not a canon (the church would be horrified!). Seriously though, in fact it is not a carronade either - these large bore, short range guns were much more built up at the breech, tapering more to the muzzle with (usually) a step down immediately before the muzzle itself. Also they did not have trunnions, in order to fit narrow spaces; instead they were fitted to the carriage by a loop underneath the barrel which swivelled vertically on a bracket fixed to the carriage. Hope this helps the discussion.
Neil

[kronckew]

early carronades sometimes did have trunnions, the more standard later UK form was as you describe, but there were variations. the wood carriage one doesn't use a high elevating screw like the iron carriaged one. later uk ones has the trunnions mounted under the barrel and used the elevating screw on a sliding carriage. the one in the OP's post is tapered from the breech towards the muzzle. it doesn't have the 'usual' step down area. 'usual' implies some did not, ie. is most often there but not mandatory.

i use 'carronade' as a description and function based on it's dictionary definition: a short large-calibre cannon, formerly in naval use.like a 'shashka' (see recent thread on it), the definiton is flexible and can cover a number of related regional and period differences. as an aside 'canon' i believe is the french term for a cannon, but we use english here for a variety of reasons... i lastly show a venerable canon of the salisbury cathedral, which is armed with a number of canons, some of which may be loose.

[fernando]

Instead of looking at it as a bronze cannon with an iron sleeve, why not thinking of it as being an iron cannon with a bronze cover ? The muzzle face has a story to tell, as maybe also that touch hole into a recess. Also the owner could tell us something like, for one, the actual touch hole face being iron.
I know this risks to be completelty silly but, i was 'inspired' by a blunderbuss of mine which, instead of having what 'should' be a bronze muzzle section, has only a bronze covering pellicle ... for decoration sake.


.

[NeilUK]

OK thanks, Kronckew, I bow to your superior knowledge. Because I happen to live only 10 miles (16 km) from the Carron Iron Works where these guns were made I have a particular regard for them!
Neil

[kronckew]

are they still in business? might be worth asking there. my knowledge is only gleaned from musty old tomes and internet references and research into historical naval warfare many moons ago as a military ossifer as well as visiting every castle, fort*, battle site, museum and sailing vessel i run across. it sometimes blurs together with interesting results and the occasional error.

*- even went to university in one for 4 years...

[kronckew]

carronades were also made by Bailey Pegg and Co. & i'll assume others, possibly other countries as well. the OP's one being bronze with a steel liner hints at a non-UK origin, as UK carronades were cast iron, no matter what we finally agree to call it.

here's two BP prepared earllier: with low-ish trunnions. the carriages look a bit suspicious, tho i found a pic of a similar carriage at carron iron works.

[NeilUK]

The original Carron works went bust 30+ years ago, but was taken over and survives in a small way making bathroom equipment - no cannon of any sort or size. I'll try to attach a couple of photos of original carronades.
Neil