Pata with single-edged blade

Jerseyman · 20th August 2016, 01:38 AM

Inspired by Kubur's pata - here is a recent acquisition. A simple steel pata - some small losses to the gauntlet. Still in the condition in which it was received. My suspicion would be that it is of northern indian origin.

What interests me however is that the blade is single-edged. I've probably only held twenty or so of these weapons, so I acknowledge the test sample and my knowledge-base are both small, but I've only ever personally seen double-edged blades on these. Does anyone have any pictures of anything similar to this one shown?

My first thought was that it was a double-fullered, european blade mounted on a local hilt. But closer examination altered my mind - specifically the fullers - if you look closely you'll see that the lower fuller seems to widen out to accommodate the shape of the langet. It almost seems to countersink it on both sides. Which must surely mean that the blade was forged specifically to/for this hilt? In the knowledge that it would have to fit a pata's extended langets. If it is a local blade it is very well made. If it's european-made perhaps it was specifically made as part of an order for patas? Has anyone heard of anything like this? I seem to recollect that Wilkinson made tulwar blades at one point?

There are no identifying marks visible on the blade - perhaps hidden under the langets.

The blade is slightly flexible, a little bounce in its extension. Nicely tempered, bends to at least 30º then springs back.

The sharp edge of course is on the outside for a right-handed grip.

All thoughts welcome.

Dimensions

Full length 49.5” 1255mm
Blade length 36.25” 920mm
Blade width 1.4” 35mm
Spine length 26.25” 665mm
False edge length 10” 255mm
Spine thickness near hilt 6mm
Spine thickness at false edge 2mm
Gauntlet length 13.25” 335mm
Grip bar 4” 102mm
Wrist width 2.75” 70mm
Forearm width 3.75” 95mm
Langet length 7.1” 180mm

Jerseyman · 20th August 2016, 01:40 AM

Some more pics;

mariusgmioc · 20th August 2016, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman

Some more pics;

Hello and thank you for this rather exotic example!

I have never seen a single edged Pata myself, so this is a first for me also.

As with regards to the blade, my bet would be on a European blade that was adapted to the mounts at the time of mounting. It wouldn't have been a difficult task to widen the already existing fuller to better fit the mounts to the blade.

PS: Scottish Broadsword blade made in Solingen?!

Kubur · 20th August 2016, 05:45 PM

Hi,
I have seen a lot of blades like this on Firangi.
Just Google and you will see.
Now I'm not an expert and I don't know where these blades come from...
But I bet that they are Indians...
Best,
Kubur

mariusgmioc · 20th August 2016, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi,
I have seen a lot of blades like this on Firangi.
Just Google and you will see.
Now I'm not an expert and I don't know where these blades come from...
But I bet that they are Indians...
Best,
Kubur

Hello Kubur,

Firangi were in their majority fit with European blades, and those that weren't, have Indian immitations of European blades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firangi_(sword)

In your example it seems to be an Indian immitation of an European blade, but for a more educated guess, more photos would be necessary.

Cthulhu · 21st August 2016, 11:31 PM

Very nice. I really like the flower rivets securing the blade, and the helical pattern on the grip.

And up until now I was unaware that single-edged pata existed. Always nice to see something unusual.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd August 2016, 10:39 PM

Thank you for showing, it is quite interesting - as I too have never seen an one edged blade on a pata - there are likely to be others, but it must be considered very rare.
Should the blade be European, I am sure Jim will tell us from where it is - just give him a little time, as he is on Route 66 :-).

Jerseyman · 10th September 2016, 10:24 PM

Thank you for the input folks.

In the hand it does seem to be a european blade - very consistent in construction. But of course difficult to attribute as there are no markings.

I actually have pictures of another pata which seem to show a single-edge blade, but I'm afraid I can't show them as they're from a sale item on a dealer's page.

Once the sale is made I shall post them for comment.

Thanks again.

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2016, 01:27 AM

Hi Jens, yes we are still on '66' plotting our escape from blazing Arizona heat, in the new Bookmobile!!!

As far as I can say, this blade looks Solingen, but agree, hard to say more without handling or marks etc. Many Solingen blades were 'blanks' and shipped en masse to foreign markets. Such blades it does not seem were widely copied by Indian makers as they were so available it did not seem necessary.

I would point out that usually the single edged blades are referred to as backswords and double edged broadswords. However in earlier times into the 19th, the term broadsword was often used indiscriminately .
Solingen did not produce double edged blades for Scotland after 1745, but they did produce these kinds of single edged blades for British cavalry swords in the latter 18th c.

With the pata, just as with the khanda, the firangi blades would well have been used as available of course. In my opinion, the style of use of the pata would have typically favored the DE blade, and mounting one with this kind of blade simply a matter of availability.

As always I would defer on those observations to those here far better versed in these arms and their use. In any case, very nice looking pata!

20th August 2016, 01:38 AM	#1
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Pata with single-edged blade Inspired by Kubur's pata - here is a recent acquisition. A simple steel pata - some small losses to the gauntlet. Still in the condition in which it was received. My suspicion would be that it is of northern indian origin. What interests me however is that the blade is single-edged. I've probably only held twenty or so of these weapons, so I acknowledge the test sample and my knowledge-base are both small, but I've only ever personally seen double-edged blades on these. Does anyone have any pictures of anything similar to this one shown? My first thought was that it was a double-fullered, european blade mounted on a local hilt. But closer examination altered my mind - specifically the fullers - if you look closely you'll see that the lower fuller seems to widen out to accommodate the shape of the langet. It almost seems to countersink it on both sides. Which must surely mean that the blade was forged specifically to/for this hilt? In the knowledge that it would have to fit a pata's extended langets. If it is a local blade it is very well made. If it's european-made perhaps it was specifically made as part of an order for patas? Has anyone heard of anything like this? I seem to recollect that Wilkinson made tulwar blades at one point? There are no identifying marks visible on the blade - perhaps hidden under the langets. The blade is slightly flexible, a little bounce in its extension. Nicely tempered, bends to at least 30º then springs back. The sharp edge of course is on the outside for a right-handed grip. All thoughts welcome. Dimensions Full length 49.5” 1255mm Blade length 36.25” 920mm Blade width 1.4” 35mm Spine length 26.25” 665mm False edge length 10” 255mm Spine thickness near hilt 6mm Spine thickness at false edge 2mm Gauntlet length 13.25” 335mm Grip bar 4” 102mm Wrist width 2.75” 70mm Forearm width 3.75” 95mm Langet length 7.1” 180mm Attached Images Last edited by Jerseyman; 20th August 2016 at 01:48 AM.

20th August 2016, 01:40 AM	#2
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Some more pics; Attached Images

20th August 2016, 05:45 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, I have seen a lot of blades like this on Firangi. Just Google and you will see. Now I'm not an expert and I don't know where these blades come from... But I bet that they are Indians... Best, Kubur Attached Images

21st August 2016, 11:31 PM	#6
Cthulhu Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Central Valley, California Posts: 46	Very nice. I really like the flower rivets securing the blade, and the helical pattern on the grip. And up until now I was unaware that single-edged pata existed. Always nice to see something unusual.

22nd August 2016, 10:39 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for showing, it is quite interesting - as I too have never seen an one edged blade on a pata - there are likely to be others, but it must be considered very rare. Should the blade be European, I am sure Jim will tell us from where it is - just give him a little time, as he is on Route 66 :-).

10th September 2016, 10:24 PM	#8
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Thank you for the input folks. In the hand it does seem to be a european blade - very consistent in construction. But of course difficult to attribute as there are no markings. I actually have pictures of another pata which seem to show a single-edge blade, but I'm afraid I can't show them as they're from a sale item on a dealer's page. Once the sale is made I shall post them for comment. Thanks again.

14th September 2016, 01:27 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Jens, yes we are still on '66' plotting our escape from blazing Arizona heat, in the new Bookmobile!!! As far as I can say, this blade looks Solingen, but agree, hard to say more without handling or marks etc. Many Solingen blades were 'blanks' and shipped en masse to foreign markets. Such blades it does not seem were widely copied by Indian makers as they were so available it did not seem necessary. I would point out that usually the single edged blades are referred to as backswords and double edged broadswords. However in earlier times into the 19th, the term broadsword was often used indiscriminately . Solingen did not produce double edged blades for Scotland after 1745, but they did produce these kinds of single edged blades for British cavalry swords in the latter 18th c. With the pata, just as with the khanda, the firangi blades would well have been used as available of course. In my opinion, the style of use of the pata would have typically favored the DE blade, and mounting one with this kind of blade simply a matter of availability. As always I would defer on those observations to those here far better versed in these arms and their use. In any case, very nice looking pata!