Oh well, I wasn't really in the market for another kris

[Marcus]

But an impulse bid on eBay won following:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-NAG...p2047675.l2557

Comments welcome.

[David]

Well Marcus, i could be wrong, but i suspect this is neither a Bali keris nor particularly old. I have brought some of the auction photos over since they will disappear off your link soon enough.

[Marcus]

Bringing the pictures over was I good idea. I don't feel too heavily invested in the item, I was probably drinking a nice Scotch when I hit the bid button and no one bid against me.
If not old and not Bali, I would still like opinions on when and where.

[Jean]

Madurese piece made in Balinese style IMO but the naga carving is very poor.
Regards

[Henk]

Marcus,

David and Jean are right. Although feedback on ebay is 100% possitive I know the seller hasn't an impeccable reputation here in the Netherlands and in Indonesia where he buys his merchandise.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have a distinct problem with this keris.

If we consider the component parts we have a wewer that is very definitely Balinese and from post 1960.

The sarung is a Balinese style, executed in what appears to be sono wood and I can see no indication at all that it is not of Balinese manufacture.

The danganan is a Balinese style, but of comparatively recent manufacture, it may be Balinese, it may be a Madurese or Javanese copy, from the photo I cannot tell.

The blade is a real puzzle. It is most definitely not a Balinese style, nor does the material have the characteristics of a Balinese blade, the finish of the surface is not typically Balinese, the manner in which the material has been welded is not typically Balinese, the pawakan is not typically Balinese, the carving at the gandhik is not typically Balinese.

What makes this problem more difficult still is that nothing about this blade is typical of Madura blades made after 1980.

Nor does it give the impression of Javanese workmanship.

I believe we can confidently eliminate all other keris bearing societies as a possible source, with one exception: Lombok.

Lombok is well known for some very peculiar keris, and this one is indeed very peculiar.

I am not saying that this keris is Lombok, but I do think that Lombok is a more likely place of origin than any other.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have a distinct problem with this keris.

If we consider the component parts we have a wewer that is very definitely Balinese and from post 1960.

The sarung is a Balinese style, executed in what appears to be sono wood and I can see no indication at all that it is not of Balinese manufacture.

The danganan is a Balinese style, but of comparatively recent manufacture, it may be Balinese, it may be a Madurese or Javanese copy, from the photo I cannot tell.

The blade is a real puzzle. It is most definitely not a Balinese style, nor does the material have the characteristics of a Balinese blade, the finish of the surface is not typically Balinese, the manner in which the material has been welded is not typically Balinese, the pawakan is not typically Balinese, the carving at the gandhik is not typically Balinese.

What makes this problem more difficult still is that nothing about this blade is typical of Madura blades made after 1980.

Nor does it give the impression of Javanese workmanship.

I believe we can confidently eliminate all other keris bearing societies as a possible source, with one exception: Lombok.

Lombok is well known for some very peculiar keris, and this one is indeed very peculiar.

I am not saying that this keris is Lombok, but I do think that Lombok is a more likely place of origin than any other.

Hello Alan,
The sarung and danganan can easily have been made in Java or Madura I think, and the wood looks to have been dyed. I attach the pics of an original kojongan sarung from Lombok for comparison.
Regarding the blade, I have a rather similar naga blade in balinese style but which I attributed to Madura, what do you think? (sorry for the pics quality).
Can anybody confirm that there were some active kris makers active in Lombok during the recent years or decades? (I personally don't know but never heard that it was the case).
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, i'm sorry, but to my eyes the pics of the keris you have posted look nothing at all like Marcus' keris.

However, I have given my opinion, I have nothing to add to it, and we are all entitled to our own opinion.

EDIT

Sorry Jean, I misunderstood your post #7 I think.

Yes, the blade you show is very probably Madura.

The wrongko you show is not kayu sono, I don't know what it is, but Marcus' wrongko is almost certainly sono; I've handled a lot of this wood, and grain and colour of Marcus' wrongko is very much sono, it is not stained.

Re the blade, I'm not at all sure it is a recent blade, from the photos I simply cannot tell, but the style of the carving does not resemble anything I've seen as recent production from Madura.

[Marcus]

Thanks for the interesting comments. I'll post more pictures when I receive the item, which won't be for a couple weeks because I will be traveling.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, i'm sorry, but to my eyes the pics of the keris you have posted look nothing at all like Marcus' keris.

However, I have given my opinion, I have nothing to add to it, and we are all entitled to our own opinion.

EDIT

Sorry Jean, I misunderstood your post #7 I think.

Yes, the blade you show is very probably Madura.

The wrongko you show is not kayu sono, I don't know what it is, but Marcus' wrongko is almost certainly sono; I've handled a lot of this wood, and grain and colour of Marcus' wrongko is very much sono, it is not stained.

Re the blade, I'm not at all sure it is a recent blade, from the photos I simply cannot tell, but the style of the carving does not resemble anything I've seen as recent production from Madura.

Thank you Alan. The wood species on the top part of my wrongko seems to be purnama and the bottom part berore pelet, this is a common combination in Lombok. I attach the pic of another kojongan kris from Lombok with such wood combination on the scabbard, and a naga blade which looks original to me. Incidentally, one experienced collector reminded me that old naga blades are always wavy, what do you think?
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, kayu pelet is not a species of wood, it is a wood pattern. Any wood at all, from any tree at all can be pelet. The word pelet refers to the combination of light and dark patterns in the wood.

I do not know of any wood named purnama. The word itself has a sanscrit root and its only normal use that I know of is as "bulan purnama" : "full moon". It is also used as a man's name but not often.

If you are telling me that the gambar on the first scabbard you posted is "kayu purnama", I'm very sorry, but I must disagree. This wood is sono, but it is sono that has a small inclusion of sapwood, the light coloured wood, next to the gandar. The application of the word "purnama" to describe this wood is probably a little bit of poetic licence in likening the small area of white wood to a moon against a dark sky. Once again, we are talking about a wood pattern.

I have just asked 3 native speakers of Indonesian if they know of the word "purnama" used as an adjective or a stand alone noun, they do not, as with myself they can only come up with "bulan purnama". To me "kayu purnama" sounds very much like a dealer's invention.

The naga blade you show is certainly a very nicely made Balinese blade, but I'm sorry, from the pic cannot give any opinion on its age.

As for straight old blades never having a naga, this is not so, I have owned old Javanese and Madurese straight blades with a naga. However they were pretty inferior blades, and logically I would think that a naga should not appear in a straight blade --- but as I have said:- they do, but seldom.

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Marcus

If not old and not Bali, I would still like opinions on when and where.

To be honest, I don't put much effort in learning names, but during the last 20 years I have handled a substantial number of old and new keris.

The keris you bought is offered as : a very good forged Blade done by a very good Empu
and as : a nice item from the old days of Indonesia.

Well, these are a few characteristics that do not come to my mind when I see this keris. I would suggest to return the item, and get a nice bottle of 20 year old scotch whisky

Best regards,
Willem

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Well, these are a few characteristics that do not come to my mind when I see this keris. I would suggest to return the item, and get a nice bottle of 20 year old scotch whisky

Hello Marcus,

agree here with Willem, sorry!

Regards,
Detlef

[mross]

Originally Posted by Marcus

Bringing the pictures over was I good idea. I don't feel too heavily invested in the item, I was probably drinking a nice Scotch when I hit the bid button and no one bid against me.
If not old and not Bali, I would still like opinions on when and where.

Sigh, I know the feeling very well. Kentucky Bourbon for me though.

[satrionumpaknogo]

Madura ..

The garap of the dragon is so so n slightly of from pakem. You can also identified from the shape of dha at greneng it is soooo Madura

My advice keep ur money mate..Im not saying Madura Kris bad but Madura after Mataram era is slighly degrading on its quality n garap just like Madiun..sad really

If you look for Madura then look for Sumenep Dalem

Cheers

[Marcus]

As much as I appreciate the suggestions to go for another nice bottle of Scotch over this kris (I'm not a fan of bourbon), I am not the sort of person who would reverse a deal based on third party advice given after the fact. I received the kris yesterday. The pictures are accurate, even though the description/attribution may not be correct. I don't think my own pictures would add much.

My understanding is that it is not really legitimate to refer to this as a "Naga kris" based on the crude quality of the carving, the fact that it is restricted to the outside surface of the dagu, and of course that the blade is straight not wavy. Also, I understand that the scabbard is not typical of Bali. Is it Madurese or possibly from Lombok?

Clearly, I am not a kris specialist so I could also use help with some of the terminology, specifically Mr. Maisey's statement "Marcus' wrongko is almost certainly sono".

Marcus

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcus

Clearly, I am not a kris specialist so I could also use help with some of the terminology, specifically Mr. Maisey's statement "Marcus' wrongko is almost certainly sono".

Marcus, i believe Alan was referring to the type of wood used to create this sheath. This wood is known more completely as Sonokembang in Indonesia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterocarpus_indicus
I am not sure what exactly would make this a illegitimate naga keris. Bad execution is not really a measure of legitimacy.
You may never be able to nail down the exact origins of this keris for sure.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Marcus

Also, I understand that the scabbard is not typical of Bali. Is it Madurese or possibly from Lombok?

Marcus

Hello Marcus,
The scabbard is in kojongan or kekojongan style from Bali/ Lombok, but apparently more frequently used in Lombok.
Regards

[Jean]

Originally Posted by satrionumpaknogo

Madura ..

The garap of the dragon is so so n slightly of from pakem. You can also identified from the shape of dha at greneng it is soooo Madura

My advice keep ur money mate..Im not saying Madura Kris bad but Madura after Mataram era is slighly degrading on its quality n garap just like Madiun..sad really

If you look for Madura then look for Sumenep Dalem

Cheers

Hello Satrio,
Thanks for your input and please continue to participate in this forum, we need more Indonesian members to mitigate the Westerners' opinions
If you have a good specimen of genuine Sumenep Dalem blade, please show it to us for reference.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I live in Australia, and I have had a long,close and continuous association with a number of Koori people.

Regrettably none of my Koori friends has even a passable knowledge of most of their culture, including anything at all to do with their weaponry, in spite of the fact that a couple of them regularly use spears to take fish and prawns.

Cultural knowledge of any kind, relating to any culture is a very special field, and as such requires special education.

My friends have never received that education, instead their knowledge of their culture is a grab-bag of beliefs and stories, some of which seem to bear all the hallmarks of gubba origin.

Parallels may be drawn with other cultures.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Satrio,
Thanks for your input and please continue to participate in this forum, we need more Indonesian members to mitigate the Westerners' opinions
If you have a good specimen of genuine Sumenep Dalem blade, please show it to us for reference.
Regards

Hi Jean. Please forgive me for making this point and i do realize that English is not your first language, but i am not sure that the word "mitigate" was quite the word you were looking for here.

mit·i·gate
verb
make less severe, serious, or painful.
"he wanted to mitigate misery in the world"
synonyms: alleviate, reduce, diminish, lessen, weaken, lighten, attenuate, take the edge off, allay, ease, assuage, palliate, relieve, tone down
"the worst symptoms have been mitigated"
antonyms: aggravate
lessen the gravity of (an offense or mistake).
"he would have faced a prison sentence but for mitigating circumstances"
synonyms: extenuating, justificatory, justifying, vindicating, qualifying; face-saving; formalexculpatory
"if not for mitigating circumstances, he would have been convicted"

We are, of course, always welcoming of people from all cultures to join us in our conversations on keris. As Alan has pointed out however, being of the Indonesian culture does not necessarily give more weight to that person's opinions, beliefs or knowledge of keris culture just as a Frenchman is not necessarily more knowledgable of fine wines. Weak analogy perhaps, but hopefully it gets the point across.

[satrionumpaknogo]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Jean. Please forgive me for making this point and i do realize that English is not your first language, but i am not sure that the word "mitigate" was quite the word you were looking for here.

mit·i·gate
verb
make less severe, serious, or painful.
"he wanted to mitigate misery in the world"
synonyms: alleviate, reduce, diminish, lessen, weaken, lighten, attenuate, take the edge off, allay, ease, assuage, palliate, relieve, tone down
"the worst symptoms have been mitigated"
antonyms: aggravate
lessen the gravity of (an offense or mistake).
"he would have faced a prison sentence but for mitigating circumstances"
synonyms: extenuating, justificatory, justifying, vindicating, qualifying; face-saving; formalexculpatory
"if not for mitigating circumstances, he would have been convicted"

We are, of course, always welcoming of people from all cultures to join us in our conversations on keris. As Alan has pointed out however, being of the Indonesian culture does not necessarily give more weight to that person's opinions, beliefs or knowledge of keris culture just as a Frenchman is not necessarily more knowledgable of fine wines. Weak analogy perhaps, but hopefully it gets the point across.

Agreed I thing "mitigate" is strong word but not entirely wrong. Apologise for my lack of politeness but I just need to say it that many misunderstanding regarding Kris culture is happening here at westerner forum.

Also no offence thats why lots of low class kris circulated in ebay or other online portal. Just piece of advice, high quality Kris not being sell online and the "pricing" not written in numbers but through candra sengkala.

e.g Gegana Luhur Pandhita Weling which is 7500 USD hehehehe..oh n you will not get full set with Warangka, only the blade like literally the blade on it's ligan or naked form.

So you see its true not all frenchmen understand fine wine, but it is in frenchmen blood to love wine.

Same goes to kris..yes 70 percent Indonesian dont understand wht the hell is kris or they only understand the magic side of it from oral story. However it is in Indonesian blood to love Kris as so their ancestor. So when Indonesian learning n loving Kris no number of westerner professor can beat him.

Kris is about olah pangroso, about doing the piwulang n paweling in everyday live ..about understanding the wisdom and it's implementation

Its like Yoga but in the form of Iron, Pamor and steel.



Salam

[satrionumpaknogo]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Satrio,
Thanks for your input and please continue to participate in this forum, we need more Indonesian members to mitigate the Westerners' opinions
If you have a good specimen of genuine Sumenep Dalem blade, please show it to us for reference.
Regards

Hello Jean I love to but I dont know how to upload picture it seems so complicated here to upload picture


Cheers

[David]

Originally Posted by satrionumpaknogo

So when Indonesian learning n loving Kris no number of westerner professor can beat him.

Ah, but then knowledge and its acquisition should never be a competition.

[David]

Originally Posted by satrionumpaknogo

Hello Jean I love to but I dont know how to upload picture it seems so complicated here to upload picture

Cheers

Uploading images is not really difficult at all. Simply click on "Manage Attachments" in the box below your posting window.
This thread might help you further if it is still confusing to you.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Jean. Please forgive me for making this point and i do realize that English is not your first language, but i am not sure that the word "mitigate" was quite the word you were looking for here.
......just as a Frenchman is not necessarily more knowledgable of fine wines.

Correct David, I should have checked in the dictionary, I meant refreshing our discussions with new comers having a different but valid experience (even if we may not totally accept some ideas), I miss Pak Ganja for instance.
Sorry but I am quite knowledgeable of fine French wines (within my limited budget) and I don't totally accept Robert Parker as the guru of Bordeaux wines....
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Correct David, I should have checked in the dictionary, I meant refreshing our discussions with new comers having a different but valid experience (even if we may not totally accept some ideas), I miss Pak Ganja for instance.
Sorry but I am quite knowledgeable of fine French wines (within my limited budget) and I don't totally accept Robert Parker as the guru of Bordeaux wines....
Regards

I certainly understood what your intention was Jean. I just wanted to make sure that others didn't misinterpret what you were trying to say.
As for wine, i'm a scotch man myself...

[A. G. Maisey]

Text removed because posted to incorrect thread.

[Marcus]

"The scabbard is in kojongan or kekojongan style from Bali/ Lombok, but apparently more frequently used in Lombok."

I see that in “Kris and other Malay weapons”, G.B. Gardner identifies this as the Madura type (Figure 13)

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcus

"The scabbard is in kojongan or kekojongan style from Bali/ Lombok, but apparently more frequently used in Lombok."

I see that in “Kris and other Malay weapons”, G.B. Gardner identifies this as the Madura type (Figure 13)

Marcus, though Gardner was an important figure in bringing the study of keris to light in the West he is not always 100% accurate in his writings.
The Walikat sheath form can be found in Jawa, Bali (though more often Lombok) and Madura, but it would be incorrect to identify it as solely a "Madura type" and i don't believe it originated in that location.