Interesting shibriya

motan · 7th April 2016, 07:54 AM

[FONT=Arial]Hello all. I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I live in Israel and my specific interest is in the daggers of the Levant. I am trying to build a small collection of them. I have recently bought a shibriya which looks different to anything I have seen before. It is slender and the hilt is made of wood. I have studied shibriyas in old photographs and I know that particularly in its early days in the twenties and thirties, there were many different styles and shapes. I also know from previous threads that some of you own very old and fine examples. Can anyone tell me something about the origin of this one? Thank you

mariusgmioc · 8th April 2016, 06:24 AM

Interesting shape of the pommel that I have never seen before. Maybe some more knowledgeable members can help you with more information.

kronckew · 8th April 2016, 10:27 AM

mine is less ornate

ariel · 8th April 2016, 11:18 AM

Ask Artzi Yarom at Oriental Arms.
If anyone knows, it is he.

motan · 8th April 2016, 11:30 AM

Thank you for your reactions. Kronkew, yours is special too because it appears to have a leather sheath. Shibriyas almost always have a wood covered with chased brass or white metal sheath.
Mariusgmuoc, this pommel shape is fairly common, especially in pre-WWII shibriyas. The disk and ring on the pommel are even more common in early examples. You can see the in the beautiful thread on ethnographic photographs in this forum.
The recurve blade is the hallmark of true shubriyas, but as far as I know, this a fairly "recent" development. I have never seen a recurve blade on an Arab dagger older that WWI.

motan · 8th April 2016, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Ask Artzi Yarom at Oriental Arms.
If anyone knows, it is he.

Thanks Ariel. I already have, but not via this forum. I only thought, because some of you own good examples I have seen in previous threads (see: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=jordan+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Jordan+dagger) that someone might know more. If not, I will not be too surprised. Even in the more established categories, like Mughal weaponry, knowledge gaps are large and items the Levant has only recently attracted attention as genuine ethnographic items. Literature on them is virtually non existent. But to me, this is their specific charm..

Gavin Nugent · 8th April 2016, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

[FONT=Arial]Hello all. I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I live in Israel and my specific interest is in the daggers of the Levant. I am trying to build a small collection of them. I have recently bought a shibriya which looks different to anything I have seen before. It is slender and the hilt is made of wood. I have studied shibriyas in old photographs and I know that particularly in its early days in the twenties and thirties, there were many different styles and shapes. I also know from previous threads that some of you own very old and fine examples. Can anyone tell me something about the origin of this one? Thank you

Hello,

Syrian Bedouin is my understanding of this type of knife, one of the many variations found through the regions in the early 1900s.

Gavin

kronckew · 8th April 2016, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Thank you for your reactions. Kronkew, yours is special too because it appears to have a leather sheath. Shibriyas almost always have a wood covered with chased brass or white metal sheath....

the scabbard is wood, covered in black leather, the leather is decorated with a geometric stamped pattern that doesn't show in the photo. the grip is horn. the blade is razor sharp with a needle tip. it's one of my favourites. it was offered on the site i bought it from many moons ago as an "assassin's" dagger, i suspect because it was all black. i found it was a shabriyah from the experts here.

they remind me of the roman utility knives which were used in the area as well as the rest of the empire, way way back.

A.alnakkas · 8th April 2016, 09:08 PM

There is a Jordanian TV documentary from the 80's that focuses on the shibriya and its relevance to Jordanian tradition. Its in Arabic and very informative.

One of the things mentioned in the documentary is the use of a material called "tanak" in earlier shibriyas. Tanak was a cheaper mixture of iron and some other materials that served as dress for the average shibriya and silver was supposed to be the finest material used.

Its interesting though that the shibriya is not restricted to only the Levant, but even as far as Nejd it is used, in surprisingly near identical craftmanship.

ariel · 9th April 2016, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

they remind me of the roman utility knives which were used in the area as well as the rest of the empire, way way back.

Do you mean "sica"?
Those were sickle-shaped, not recurved.Sicarii were Judean anti-Roman fighters.
I am not aware of anything else remotely similar in the area.

harrywagner · 9th April 2016, 01:39 AM

Here is one from my collection that I like and that is similar to yours, though not as nice.

It is silver and I think early 20th. These are still carried and used by the Bedouin tribes in Israel and Jordan. I bought this one from Artzi at OA.

Harry

motan · 9th April 2016, 08:47 AM

Hello everybody. Thank you all for your reactions. This thread has gone beyond my expectations.
A.alnakas, do you have a link to the documentary? My Arabic is limited, but would very much like to see it.
Knonckew, I would like to make a guess about your shibriya. It is unusual and as I see it, it is a hybrid type. The blade and pommel shape are certainly shibriya, but some details like the workmanship on the blade, the high quality black (buffalo?) horn, the two protruding central bolsters, but most of all, the stamped leather scabbard all point to Kurdish type dagger. Because the territories of the Bedouins and the Kurds meet somewhere in the northern Syrian desert (very bad place to be at the moment) I would place it around there.
Harrywagner, your shibriya is BEAUTIFUL and rare. It is certainly an older example from the 20's or 30's. The craftsmanship is much better than in mine. What did Artzi say about it when you bought it?
Yes, shibriyas are still made today around Amman and are still part of the formal dress of some units of the Jordanian army-recent examples are not as nice and usually very small. The more "standard" types from the 40's-60's look like the photos. I hope Artzi wouldn't mind that I borrowed some from his site..

kronckew · 9th April 2016, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Do you mean "sica"?
Those were sickle-shaped, not recurved.Sicarii were Judean anti-Roman fighters.
I am not aware of anything else remotely similar in the area.

no, i was referring to the roman legionnaires, not the locals...

harrywagner · 9th April 2016, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Harrywagner, your shibriya is BEAUTIFUL and rare. It is certainly an older example from the 20's or 30's. The craftsmanship is much better than in mine. What did Artzi say about it when you bought it?

I actually bought another shibriya but it was missing from inventory so Artzi substituted this one and another for it, both of which were better than the one I purchased! He said the one I posted is from his private collection and I believe it. I do not often see them as nice as this one, or as nice as yours. I would call both "keepers".

Harry

A.alnakkas · 10th April 2016, 04:45 AM

Here you go, Motan: http://www.medmem.eu/ar/notice/JRT00258

Here is a report I found on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a733Pw0fAF4

ariel · 10th April 2016, 04:57 AM

This is a woman after my own heart:-)))

motan · 17th April 2016, 10:48 PM

I have seen them both. Very nice to see the actual work on shibriyas. I am not sure I got much wiser though.
Like many similar middle eastern daggers, for example koumayas, they are still made today, and intended both as tourist souvenir as for local use. However, styles have shifted a little, which makes older ones easier to identify.
Anyway, I enjoyed watching them. Thanks again

7th April 2016, 07:54 AM	#1
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Interesting shibriya [FONT=Arial]Hello all. I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I live in Israel and my specific interest is in the daggers of the Levant. I am trying to build a small collection of them. I have recently bought a shibriya which looks different to anything I have seen before. It is slender and the hilt is made of wood. I have studied shibriyas in old photographs and I know that particularly in its early days in the twenties and thirties, there were many different styles and shapes. I also know from previous threads that some of you own very old and fine examples. Can anyone tell me something about the origin of this one? Thank you Attached Images

8th April 2016, 10:27 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	mine is less ornate Attached Images

8th April 2016, 11:30 AM	#5
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Thanks Thank you for your reactions. Kronkew, yours is special too because it appears to have a leather sheath. Shibriyas almost always have a wood covered with chased brass or white metal sheath. Mariusgmuoc, this pommel shape is fairly common, especially in pre-WWII shibriyas. The disk and ring on the pommel are even more common in early examples. You can see the in the beautiful thread on ethnographic photographs in this forum. The recurve blade is the hallmark of true shubriyas, but as far as I know, this a fairly "recent" development. I have never seen a recurve blade on an Arab dagger older that WWI.

9th April 2016, 01:39 AM	#11
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Here is one from my collection that I like and that is similar to yours, though not as nice. It is silver and I think early 20th. These are still carried and used by the Bedouin tribes in Israel and Jordan. I bought this one from Artzi at OA. Harry Attached Images

9th April 2016, 08:47 AM	#12
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hello everybody. Thank you all for your reactions. This thread has gone beyond my expectations. A.alnakas, do you have a link to the documentary? My Arabic is limited, but would very much like to see it. Knonckew, I would like to make a guess about your shibriya. It is unusual and as I see it, it is a hybrid type. The blade and pommel shape are certainly shibriya, but some details like the workmanship on the blade, the high quality black (buffalo?) horn, the two protruding central bolsters, but most of all, the stamped leather scabbard all point to Kurdish type dagger. Because the territories of the Bedouins and the Kurds meet somewhere in the northern Syrian desert (very bad place to be at the moment) I would place it around there. Harrywagner, your shibriya is BEAUTIFUL and rare. It is certainly an older example from the 20's or 30's. The craftsmanship is much better than in mine. What did Artzi say about it when you bought it? Yes, shibriyas are still made today around Amman and are still part of the formal dress of some units of the Jordanian army-recent examples are not as nice and usually very small. The more "standard" types from the 40's-60's look like the photos. I hope Artzi wouldn't mind that I borrowed some from his site.. Attached Images

8th April 2016, 06:24 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Interesting shape of the pommel that I have never seen before. Maybe some more knowledgeable members can help you with more information.

8th April 2016, 11:18 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ask Artzi Yarom at Oriental Arms. If anyone knows, it is he.

8th April 2016, 09:08 PM	#9
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	There is a Jordanian TV documentary from the 80's that focuses on the shibriya and its relevance to Jordanian tradition. Its in Arabic and very informative. One of the things mentioned in the documentary is the use of a material called "tanak" in earlier shibriyas. Tanak was a cheaper mixture of iron and some other materials that served as dress for the average shibriya and silver was supposed to be the finest material used. Its interesting though that the shibriya is not restricted to only the Levant, but even as far as Nejd it is used, in surprisingly near identical craftmanship.

10th April 2016, 04:45 AM	#15
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Here you go, Motan: http://www.medmem.eu/ar/notice/JRT00258 Here is a report I found on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a733Pw0fAF4 Last edited by A.alnakkas; 10th April 2016 at 05:00 AM.

10th April 2016, 04:57 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This is a woman after my own heart:-)))

17th April 2016, 10:48 PM	#17
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Thanks A.alnakkas I have seen them both. Very nice to see the actual work on shibriyas. I am not sure I got much wiser though. Like many similar middle eastern daggers, for example koumayas, they are still made today, and intended both as tourist souvenir as for local use. However, styles have shifted a little, which makes older ones easier to identify. Anyway, I enjoyed watching them. Thanks again