Swept Hilt Rapier–help with inscription

Cathey · 20th March 2016, 04:25 AM

Hi Guys

I believe this swept hilt to be Italian? However, I am unable to identify the letters on the blade and the marking on the ricasso is also difficult to place. Based on the Pommel and hilt configuration it is probably early seventeen century.

Overall Length 43 ½” 110.7 cm
Blade length 35 1/8” from bottom of shell guard to tip
Blade widest point 7/8” 2.3 cm
Hilt widest point 10” 25.2 cm
Inside grip length 3 ¼” 8.3 cm

Description
Plain steel Swept Hilt Rapier made up of a Mushroom facetted pommel; wire-bound grip, straight quillons, hilt arms; triple ring guard; the smallest filled with a plate pieced; loop-guard, knuckle-bow; counterguards. Diamond Section blade inscribed? Probably Italian Early 17th Century.

References:
DUFTY, Arthur Richard EUROPEAN SWORDS AND DAGGERS IN THE TOWER OF LONDON plate 24 d
NORMAN, A.V.B. THE RAPIER AND THE SMALL-SWORD 1460-1820, Pp132 Hilt 60 & 61, pp 264 Pommel 55 pp 267 Pommel 61
Wallace Collection A605 Rapier

Any assistance identifying these letters combined with the mark on the ricasso will be most appreciated.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

ulfberth · 20th March 2016, 10:38 AM

Hi Cathey,

thats a classic rapier and indeed early 17th C.
This pommel shape can also be found on pappenheimer type rapiers.
To me one side of the blade reads A L E M A N I A.
The shell like scales look like an old restoration, this is often the case with this type of scales and not problematic.
A very nice and Original rapier.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

fernando · 20th March 2016, 03:44 PM

Or MANIA in the mentioned side and ? + ? + IN ALE in the other ?

.
Excelent example; congratulations.
Could it be that Jasper may discern the faded sword smith mark ?

Cathey · 22nd March 2016, 03:41 AM

Hi Ulferth and Fernando

Thank you for your responses, every time I look at these letters I come up with something else. I was hoping that the combination of the mark and the letters might be familiar to someone out there who could solve the puzzle. The sword was in a friend’s collection for many years before it came our way and at first glance I regarded it as a Pappenheimer. I still think it has a distinctly Pappenheimer look to it although the side plates are notable small, more like filled in rings really. I do hope someone can solve the puzzle of the maker and nationality for me, still leaning towards Italian at this stage.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

ulfberth · 22nd March 2016, 09:18 AM

Hi Cathey,

the faded sword makers mark could be seen as Sebastian Hernandez the Elder.
The rapier could be south German or North Italian wit an export Hernandez blade or with a producer of blades in Germany who used his mark.

kind regards

Ulfberth

ulfberth · 22nd March 2016, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Ulferth and Fernando

Thank you for your responses, every time I look at these letters I come up with something else. I was hoping that the combination of the mark and the letters might be familiar to someone out there who could solve the puzzle. The sword was in a friend’s collection for many years before it came our way and at first glance I regarded it as a Pappenheimer. I still think it has a distinctly Pappenheimer look to it although the side plates are notable small, more like filled in rings really. I do hope someone can solve the puzzle of the maker and nationality for me, still leaning towards Italian at this stage.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Its easy to see how the double scaled rapiers evolved further into the pappenheimer....

Kind regards

Ulfberth

fernando · 22nd March 2016, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi Cathey,

the faded sword makers mark could be seen as Sebastian Hernandez the Elder.
The rapier could be south German or North Italian wit an export Hernandez blade or with a producer of blades in Germany who used his mark.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Quite a long shot, right Ulfberth ?
May i upload a brighter mark of Sebastian Hernandez so that Cathey may compare it with theon in her rapier at naked eye ...

ulfberth · 22nd March 2016, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Or MANIA in the mentioned side and ? + ? + IN ALE in the other ?

.
Excelent example; congratulations.
Could it be that Jasper may discern the faded sword smith mark ?

As you said Fernando "faded sword mark" thats why I deliberately used the faded version of the mark to compare it with the one on the rapier.
It seemed like a good idea at the time.

fernando · 22nd March 2016, 08:19 PM

I guess i took it from a different perspective; a brighter picture would better help identifying a faded mark.
Both versions are available now

.

Cathey · 24th March 2016, 11:58 PM

Hi Fernando and Ulfberth

I think Fernando could be on to something with Sebastian Hernandez the Elder. I have tried to gently clean the mark and with the naked eye I am confident in the crown and the cross, the number three is also a good fit for what I am looking at. However there is always the risk that now I have the number 3 in mind I am seeing what I expect to see. Unfortunately the previous owner decided to have a gun smith clean the blade and tighten the hilt for me before handing over the sword. Thankfully he did not overdo it but this has probably not helped with the letters in the fuller, which could well be distorted.

If this sword is by Sebastian Hernandez, the time would fit, and perhaps the letters on the blade have nothing to do with the maker, they could also just be a slogan of some sort. Looking at the pictures posted by Ulfberth this sword does have the look or a forerunner to the Papenheimer. This might be an interesting area to explore further.

I do hope Jasper has a look at this post, perhaps he has come across this combination of letters before.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

20th March 2016, 04:25 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Swept Hilt Rapier–help with inscription Hi Guys I believe this swept hilt to be Italian? However, I am unable to identify the letters on the blade and the marking on the ricasso is also difficult to place. Based on the Pommel and hilt configuration it is probably early seventeen century. Overall Length 43 ½” 110.7 cm Blade length 35 1/8” from bottom of shell guard to tip Blade widest point 7/8” 2.3 cm Hilt widest point 10” 25.2 cm Inside grip length 3 ¼” 8.3 cm Description Plain steel Swept Hilt Rapier made up of a Mushroom facetted pommel; wire-bound grip, straight quillons, hilt arms; triple ring guard; the smallest filled with a plate pieced; loop-guard, knuckle-bow; counterguards. Diamond Section blade inscribed? Probably Italian Early 17th Century. References: DUFTY, Arthur Richard EUROPEAN SWORDS AND DAGGERS IN THE TOWER OF LONDON plate 24 d NORMAN, A.V.B. THE RAPIER AND THE SMALL-SWORD 1460-1820, Pp132 Hilt 60 & 61, pp 264 Pommel 55 pp 267 Pommel 61 Wallace Collection A605 Rapier Any assistance identifying these letters combined with the mark on the ricasso will be most appreciated. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

22nd March 2016, 03:41 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Swept Hilt maker ID Hi Ulferth and Fernando Thank you for your responses, every time I look at these letters I come up with something else. I was hoping that the combination of the mark and the letters might be familiar to someone out there who could solve the puzzle. The sword was in a friend’s collection for many years before it came our way and at first glance I regarded it as a Pappenheimer. I still think it has a distinctly Pappenheimer look to it although the side plates are notable small, more like filled in rings really. I do hope someone can solve the puzzle of the maker and nationality for me, still leaning towards Italian at this stage. Cheers Cathey and Rex

22nd March 2016, 09:18 AM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hi Cathey, the faded sword makers mark could be seen as Sebastian Hernandez the Elder. The rapier could be south German or North Italian wit an export Hernandez blade or with a producer of blades in Germany who used his mark. kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

24th March 2016, 11:58 PM	#10
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Sebastian Hernandez ? Hi Fernando and Ulfberth I think Fernando could be on to something with Sebastian Hernandez the Elder. I have tried to gently clean the mark and with the naked eye I am confident in the crown and the cross, the number three is also a good fit for what I am looking at. However there is always the risk that now I have the number 3 in mind I am seeing what I expect to see. Unfortunately the previous owner decided to have a gun smith clean the blade and tighten the hilt for me before handing over the sword. Thankfully he did not overdo it but this has probably not helped with the letters in the fuller, which could well be distorted. If this sword is by Sebastian Hernandez, the time would fit, and perhaps the letters on the blade have nothing to do with the maker, they could also just be a slogan of some sort. Looking at the pictures posted by Ulfberth this sword does have the look or a forerunner to the Papenheimer. This might be an interesting area to explore further. I do hope Jasper has a look at this post, perhaps he has come across this combination of letters before. Cheers Cathey and Rex

20th March 2016, 10:38 AM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hi Cathey, thats a classic rapier and indeed early 17th C. This pommel shape can also be found on pappenheimer type rapiers. To me one side of the blade reads A L E M A N I A. The shell like scales look like an old restoration, this is often the case with this type of scales and not problematic. A very nice and Original rapier. Kind regards Ulfberth

20th March 2016, 03:44 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Or MANIA in the mentioned side and ? + ? + IN ALE in the other ? . Excelent example; congratulations. Could it be that Jasper may discern the faded sword smith mark ?

22nd March 2016, 08:19 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I guess i took it from a different perspective; a brighter picture would better help identifying a faded mark. Both versions are available now .