Khanda sword

Ken Maddock · 17th March 2016, 09:58 PM

Hi all
Purchased the attached sword
Looking for some advice
I normally do not clean up my swords but this one needs a lot if TLC
Before I attempt I want to make a few enquiries before I go along a route that it is very hard to recover from
Overall description is that the khanda is a bit unusual in that it has a tulwar type handle as opposed to the normal basket and secondly it is very short at 22.5 inches blade length and 27.5 overall length
I am thinking about how to clean up the sword
I feel to clean it properly I need to remove the fretting re enforcement on the blade or else I will not get the blade cleaned into the groves of the fretting, you should be able to see the pin holding the fretting on the longest side, would ther be a pin on both ends if the fretting and is it a friction fit or is it soldered to the blade
Also I will have to remove the blade out of the handlebuti have re seated blades into the resin with no real difficulty.
So question iis, is this a rare blade or is the blade of no real value so I have nothing to loose
Any idea of age or cleaning advice welcomed
Regards and happy st Patricks day
Ken

ariel · 17th March 2016, 10:36 PM

Is there a hole in the blade for the purported "khanda handle" rivet?

mariusgmioc · 17th March 2016, 10:38 PM

Maybe I am paranoid, but I suspect a tourist Khanda.

The blade of a typical Khanda is flat and rather flexible, and that's why it needs the side reinforcements. This one appears to have a ridge.

I would advise against any attempt to disassemble the blade for cleaning.

Ken Maddock · 17th March 2016, 11:03 PM

Hi
Thanks for the replies
Yes
There is a hole in the fretting with a rivet which seems to be holding the fretting to the blade
Yes there is a ridge on the blade
It seems to me to be a working blade but maybe a tourist item, this I do not
know
If any more photos would help it is no problem
Cheers
Ken

TVV · 17th March 2016, 11:23 PM

I believe what Ariel was looking for would be a hole under the langets.

Jim McDougall · 18th March 2016, 02:57 AM

Interesting conundrum.
Obviously the hilt is a reasonably modern tulwar type (relatively) and could be 19th century Rajasthan product. Khanda blades are of course from centuries earlier into medieval period. While there seems to be good age patination on the blade, it is hard to guage from photos, and the bright spots are of concern for metal of such presumed age.

The blade itself seems rather 'shapeless' and rudimentary, but I would point out that khanda blades of early times, though often flat, were also often with central ridge ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", Elgood. p.81-82, fig. 8.11).
The plates running along the edges were as much for added weight to downward blows as for strength, and the shorter for grasping of blade if required.
The usual hilt on these was of course the basket type hilt with the long stem extending to grip as well.

In most cases on authentic khanda there were bolsters (trunking) extending down the forte and riveted to the blade (as mentioned by Ariel).

The blade edge plates on this seem rudimentary and lack the usual openwork or piercings of most examples.

While always trying to be optimistic, this example seems somewhat off center though hard to say from photos, the incongruent use of the tulwar hilt notwithstanding....and may have been intended for ceremonial or votive use. It does not seem close enough stylistically for a souvenier or 'collectible'.

Ken Maddock · 18th March 2016, 08:53 AM

Thanks
Gentlemen for your information
Some answers
There is no rivet holding the handle to the blade, it seems to be entirely held in by resin
There are no bright spots of metal on the blade, the white bits are white paint, there are more spots of other colours here and there.
I purchased at an auction in Ireland so no story with the sword.

The blade length is quiet short at just over two foot but has a hefty weight to it.
I have handled and owned a fair amount of similar items so I do think it is a fighting item but I have been wrong many times
I will report back with a weight when I get to a scales
Thanks
Ken

Mercenary · 18th March 2016, 11:20 AM

On the most part of Indian painting the khandas had tulwar-type handle.
I like this item. Real sword.

ariel · 18th March 2016, 04:55 PM

If there is no rivet hole under the langet, the unusual length of the blade is more likely to be explained by the loss of the distal part . Usually, khandas have a spoon-like widening of the tip and very often it is either rounded or triangular but with a very obtuse angle. Yours is quite sharp and fit for stabbing.

I think the sword was reworked. Whether it was during its active life, to preserve its fighting function, or much later on, to preserve it as a decorative item, I can't tell.

Hell of a job you are going to have cleaning the rust....

Jim McDougall · 18th March 2016, 07:04 PM

The great part about discussion is that exchange of ideas and observations expand the comprehension of the subject in working toward a more conclusive evaluation or better posed options.
I think Ariel makes good points here (no pun intended) regarding the blade. Though some examples were indeed shorter than others, this seems a bit shorter than those typically shown in references. The lack of the 'trunking' rivet holes at forte does seem significant, and reworking of the blade quite possible.
The tip of this blade seems atypical toward either the 'spatulate' flare or the acute point of spear or other shapes usually seen on early khandas. It seems too 'rebated' for thrust however, and it seems that the swordsmanship of these times favored heavy chopping or slashing cuts instead.
I would not have suspected paint in the blade patches, but not surprised between these old eyes and my less than high tech computer 'skills'(?).
That is a relief though! and though I cannot imagine why paint would be there......it bolsters the value of that patination.

If up to me, I would leave darkened patination alone as to me it adds to the historical demeanor of the sword. I am only for stabilizing active corrosion and any damage. As for the paint spots, remove or darken accordingly.

Ken Maddock · 18th March 2016, 08:44 PM

Hi all
For the sake of completion of the information I have added two more pictures
One of the tip which looks to be less than profesionally shaped
I assume this gives credence for the spatula tip been re shaped
The width at tip is 1 and 5/8 inch or 40 mm
It would have no stabbing capability though
I hope you can see the pronounced ridge on the blade I also have attached a photo of the handle to show what a work of art this once was

I will clean the paint and the crud off the blade and see how it looks, leave well enough alone Is the mantra I tend to adopt and as the weapon has some age to it I will not ruin it

If the blade is an original khanda middle ridge blade would anyone care to give a guesstimate on age

Thanks again
Ken

kahnjar1 · 18th March 2016, 10:15 PM

Hi Ken,
You might try pineapple juice for cleaning the blade. It is VERY gentle but takes quite a while depending on the amount of rust to be removed.
METHOD: Use a piece of plastic pipe of suitable diameter and length, capped and sealed at one end. Fill this with the juice and suspend the blade. After a few days remove blade and use very fine steel wool to remove loose rust. Repeat process 'til blade is clean.
This method will of course also remove any rust in the "teeth" of the edge plates.
I have used this method in the past with good success.
By the way you can buy the juice cheaply at your local Supermarket.
Stu

ariel · 19th March 2016, 02:12 PM

What about WD-40 " Rust Remover Soak"?

Anybody here had any experience with it?

Ken Maddock · 19th March 2016, 06:01 PM

I will have to have a good think about my next step as I do not want to remove the platina
Will pineapple juice strip back to clean metal or leave the brown in situ?
I have looked up a few treads on the forum and hard to find a concencus of opinion.
Regards
Ken

mariusgmioc · 19th March 2016, 07:00 PM

For removing rust, I use Picreator's Metal De-corroder. It however, removes all rust and oxidation down to the healthy base (so it also removes the patina). It is non-aggressive and environment-friendly, but is expensive.

However, before starting to clean the blade, consider carefully if it's worth the effort and the risk.

kahnjar1 · 19th March 2016, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Maddock

I will have to have a good think about my next step as I do not want to remove the platina
Will pineapple juice strip back to clean metal or leave the brown in situ?
I have looked up a few treads on the forum and hard to find a concencus of opinion.
Regards
Ken

Hi Ken,
It is a while since I last used this method but seem to remember that the metal came up quite clean, so it is likely that patina could be removed, BUT the rust on your blade looks quite thick so what do you class as "patina"?
Stu

Jens Nordlunde · 19th March 2016, 10:38 PM

I know that your main interest is the blade, but why did you never describe the hilt?

Ken Maddock · 20th March 2016, 08:16 AM

Hi Jens
No reason, I am a beginner in this sort of study and do not really know what to talk about
I just took the hilt as a tulwar handle, with some silvering
Is there anything else to be discerned Jim suggested it is Rajasthan in type from 19 th century.
Do you want any more photographs to help with any identification.
Cheers
Ken

Rick · 20th March 2016, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If there is no rivet hole under the langet, the unusual length of the blade is more likely to be explained by the loss of the distal part . Usually, khandas have a spoon-like widening of the tip and very often it is either rounded or triangular but with a very obtuse angle. Yours is quite sharp and fit for stabbing.

I think the sword was reworked. Whether it was during its active life, to preserve its fighting function, or much later on, to preserve it as a decorative item, I can't tell.

Hell of a job you are going to have cleaning the rust....

Something new for rust:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfczxBWJuNg#t=36

Emanuel · 22nd March 2016, 07:11 PM

Here is the manufacturer:
http://www.cleanlaser.de/wEnglish/pr...anchor=2110009

spiritualwarrior1978 · 5th August 2017, 02:23 AM

Hi ken, just been clicking through the forums, was really interested to know how the clean up went ? Any pics ?

17th March 2016, 09:58 PM	#1
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Khanda sword Hi all Purchased the attached sword Looking for some advice I normally do not clean up my swords but this one needs a lot if TLC Before I attempt I want to make a few enquiries before I go along a route that it is very hard to recover from Overall description is that the khanda is a bit unusual in that it has a tulwar type handle as opposed to the normal basket and secondly it is very short at 22.5 inches blade length and 27.5 overall length I am thinking about how to clean up the sword I feel to clean it properly I need to remove the fretting re enforcement on the blade or else I will not get the blade cleaned into the groves of the fretting, you should be able to see the pin holding the fretting on the longest side, would ther be a pin on both ends if the fretting and is it a friction fit or is it soldered to the blade Also I will have to remove the blade out of the handlebuti have re seated blades into the resin with no real difficulty. So question iis, is this a rare blade or is the blade of no real value so I have nothing to loose Any idea of age or cleaning advice welcomed Regards and happy st Patricks day Ken Attached Images

17th March 2016, 10:38 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	suspcious Maybe I am paranoid, but I suspect a tourist Khanda. The blade of a typical Khanda is flat and rather flexible, and that's why it needs the side reinforcements. This one appears to have a ridge. I would advise against any attempt to disassemble the blade for cleaning.

17th March 2016, 11:03 PM	#4
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi Thanks for the replies Yes There is a hole in the fretting with a rivet which seems to be holding the fretting to the blade Yes there is a ridge on the blade It seems to me to be a working blade but maybe a tourist item, this I do not know If any more photos would help it is no problem Cheers Ken Attached Images Last edited by Ken Maddock; 17th March 2016 at 11:18 PM.

18th March 2016, 08:44 PM	#11
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi all For the sake of completion of the information I have added two more pictures One of the tip which looks to be less than profesionally shaped I assume this gives credence for the spatula tip been re shaped The width at tip is 1 and 5/8 inch or 40 mm It would have no stabbing capability though I hope you can see the pronounced ridge on the blade I also have attached a photo of the handle to show what a work of art this once was I will clean the paint and the crud off the blade and see how it looks, leave well enough alone Is the mantra I tend to adopt and as the weapon has some age to it I will not ruin it If the blade is an original khanda middle ridge blade would anyone care to give a guesstimate on age Thanks again Ken Attached Images

18th March 2016, 10:15 PM	#12
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Cleaning suggestion Hi Ken, You might try pineapple juice for cleaning the blade. It is VERY gentle but takes quite a while depending on the amount of rust to be removed. METHOD: Use a piece of plastic pipe of suitable diameter and length, capped and sealed at one end. Fill this with the juice and suspend the blade. After a few days remove blade and use very fine steel wool to remove loose rust. Repeat process 'til blade is clean. This method will of course also remove any rust in the "teeth" of the edge plates. I have used this method in the past with good success. By the way you can buy the juice cheaply at your local Supermarket. Stu

17th March 2016, 10:36 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is there a hole in the blade for the purported "khanda handle" rivet?

17th March 2016, 11:23 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	I believe what Ariel was looking for would be a hole under the langets.

18th March 2016, 02:57 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Interesting conundrum. Obviously the hilt is a reasonably modern tulwar type (relatively) and could be 19th century Rajasthan product. Khanda blades are of course from centuries earlier into medieval period. While there seems to be good age patination on the blade, it is hard to guage from photos, and the bright spots are of concern for metal of such presumed age. The blade itself seems rather 'shapeless' and rudimentary, but I would point out that khanda blades of early times, though often flat, were also often with central ridge ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", Elgood. p.81-82, fig. 8.11). The plates running along the edges were as much for added weight to downward blows as for strength, and the shorter for grasping of blade if required. The usual hilt on these was of course the basket type hilt with the long stem extending to grip as well. In most cases on authentic khanda there were bolsters (trunking) extending down the forte and riveted to the blade (as mentioned by Ariel). The blade edge plates on this seem rudimentary and lack the usual openwork or piercings of most examples. While always trying to be optimistic, this example seems somewhat off center though hard to say from photos, the incongruent use of the tulwar hilt notwithstanding....and may have been intended for ceremonial or votive use. It does not seem close enough stylistically for a souvenier or 'collectible'.

18th March 2016, 08:53 AM	#7
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Thanks Gentlemen for your information Some answers There is no rivet holding the handle to the blade, it seems to be entirely held in by resin There are no bright spots of metal on the blade, the white bits are white paint, there are more spots of other colours here and there. I purchased at an auction in Ireland so no story with the sword. The blade length is quiet short at just over two foot but has a hefty weight to it. I have handled and owned a fair amount of similar items so I do think it is a fighting item but I have been wrong many times I will report back with a weight when I get to a scales Thanks Ken

18th March 2016, 11:20 AM	#8
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	On the most part of Indian painting the khandas had tulwar-type handle. I like this item. Real sword.

18th March 2016, 04:55 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If there is no rivet hole under the langet, the unusual length of the blade is more likely to be explained by the loss of the distal part . Usually, khandas have a spoon-like widening of the tip and very often it is either rounded or triangular but with a very obtuse angle. Yours is quite sharp and fit for stabbing. I think the sword was reworked. Whether it was during its active life, to preserve its fighting function, or much later on, to preserve it as a decorative item, I can't tell. Hell of a job you are going to have cleaning the rust....

18th March 2016, 07:04 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	The great part about discussion is that exchange of ideas and observations expand the comprehension of the subject in working toward a more conclusive evaluation or better posed options. I think Ariel makes good points here (no pun intended) regarding the blade. Though some examples were indeed shorter than others, this seems a bit shorter than those typically shown in references. The lack of the 'trunking' rivet holes at forte does seem significant, and reworking of the blade quite possible. The tip of this blade seems atypical toward either the 'spatulate' flare or the acute point of spear or other shapes usually seen on early khandas. It seems too 'rebated' for thrust however, and it seems that the swordsmanship of these times favored heavy chopping or slashing cuts instead. I would not have suspected paint in the blade patches, but not surprised between these old eyes and my less than high tech computer 'skills'(?). That is a relief though! and though I cannot imagine why paint would be there......it bolsters the value of that patination. If up to me, I would leave darkened patination alone as to me it adds to the historical demeanor of the sword. I am only for stabilizing active corrosion and any damage. As for the paint spots, remove or darken accordingly.

19th March 2016, 02:12 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What about WD-40 " Rust Remover Soak"? Anybody here had any experience with it?

19th March 2016, 06:01 PM	#14
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	I will have to have a good think about my next step as I do not want to remove the platina Will pineapple juice strip back to clean metal or leave the brown in situ? I have looked up a few treads on the forum and hard to find a concencus of opinion. Regards Ken

19th March 2016, 07:00 PM	#15
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	For removing rust, I use Picreator's Metal De-corroder. It however, removes all rust and oxidation down to the healthy base (so it also removes the patina). It is non-aggressive and environment-friendly, but is expensive. However, before starting to clean the blade, consider carefully if it's worth the effort and the risk.

19th March 2016, 10:38 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I know that your main interest is the blade, but why did you never describe the hilt?

20th March 2016, 08:16 AM	#18
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi Jens No reason, I am a beginner in this sort of study and do not really know what to talk about I just took the hilt as a tulwar handle, with some silvering Is there anything else to be discerned Jim suggested it is Rajasthan in type from 19 th century. Do you want any more photographs to help with any identification. Cheers Ken

22nd March 2016, 07:11 PM	#20
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here is the manufacturer: http://www.cleanlaser.de/wEnglish/pr...anchor=2110009

5th August 2017, 02:23 AM	#21
spiritualwarrior1978 Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 10	Hi ken, just been clicking through the forums, was really interested to know how the clean up went ? Any pics ?