Medieval sword type XVI with decorated disk pommel

[Cerjak]

Medieval sword type XVI with decorated disk pommel
This sword is a typical exemplar of Oakeshott's type XVI or perhaps XVI A.
O.L. 99 cm ; blade L. 79 cm; blade width at hilt 6cm
Grip: not really a hand and half but near (about 14 cm)
Blade:
Fuller only in the upper section (37 cm) also the tang, below the end of the fuller is of a stiff flattened-diamond section with a median ridge, and acutely pointed tip
Pommel : Flat disk of type G ?
Cross guard 19 cm
Type XVI is the first of Oakeshott's categories to have a balanced, effective mix of cutting and thrusting abilities.
period 1300-1350.

[fernando]

Superb, Jean-Luc.
I must come around your house to check on the possibilities to break in and relief you from a couple pieces ... namely this one .

[Cerjak]

there is no doubt ,this sword saw action !

[fernando]

Well, you can never be sure that those failures are result of real action, Jean-Luc .
Who is to know what is the % of probabilities that blade dents are result of combat versus inumerous other incidents ... mostly children and even grown ups playing with them just for fun ... or silliness .

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Superb, Jean-Luc.
I must come around your house to check on the possibilities to break in and relief you from a couple pieces ... namely this one .

Fernando ,

Be sure that I will always keep an eagle eye on you!
Best,
Jean-Luc

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, you can never be sure that those failures are result of real action, Jean-Luc .
Who is to know what is the % of probabilities that blade dents are result of combat versus inumerous other incidents ... mostly children and even grown ups playing with them just for fun ... or silliness .

Fernando
Of course It would be a possibility. However we know that most of these medieval swords were found more or less recently in rivers beds and went immediately in museum or collector hands .Also Since the dawn of time Men’s are always been fascinated by swords so I guess that such object were kept with the greatest care

[fernando]

Well, if the dents have the same patina as the whole blade, that would be a good symptom .

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, if the dents have the same patina as the whole blade, that would be a good symptom .

This is a great sword of high quality.


One can recognize notches from sword fighting by the shape of them.

If the notch is shaped almost like a half drop, it is almost 100% caused by heavy contact from one cutting edge to another.


Roland

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, The sword looks real...but I am not sure about the so called sword on sword strike marks... Can anyone show another similar sword with sword on sword strikes? This weapon came from a deep pool... In the old days great swords were thrown in deep pools ...we know that... so assuming we are looking at about 1000 year old strike marks is this what they look like...? Frankly I would hesitate before plunging into those waters...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Definitely a fantastic sword!!! There is something about the mysterious charm in these deeply patinated yet intact swords of this kind of antiquity.
It would be interesting to know what sort of provenance is with this piece.
While many swords of this age are river finds, others are of course from bog areas etc. and I have been studying as much as I can find on the kind of condition as varied in different circumstances.

It is indeed an exciting notion to consider the nicks or notches at the blade edges as combat damage, but is it possible these might also be from deterioration of the goethite in the edges, which seem not only obviously the thinner part of the blade, but often resulting from metal variations. As the blades were forged, typically different components and impurities would have been distributed irregularly throughout.

In reading various Oakeshott works, these kinds of infractions can be seen in wide range on many of the excavated swords and along the edges, from relatively minor gaps or nicks, to larger open sections missing along the edges.

Looking at the type of sword, as noted in Oakeshotts typology as a Type XVI, and presumably of c. 1300-50, it is interesting to consider what events might have been occurring in these times. Along with that it is important to note that though these typologies work well as points of reference for classification, they are largely unreliable in accurately dating a sword without corroborating evidence or provenance.

"..Type XVI is really a compromise between types XIV and XV, for the upper half of the blade retains the old flat fullered section while the lower half (the business end of the sword) is four sided and acutely pointed".
Oakeshott , "Archaeology of Weapons", 1962, p.309)

During what is referenced as a transitional period (1320-50) in armour where more reinforced plates to old harness of mail, these also 'transitional' swords developed. Though well within the long period of the Crusades (1096-1487) it seems that the 14th century was relatively without any major campaigns which would fall into that broad category .

Looking to the pommel, indeed the Oakeshott Type G, a simple disc, the cross symbol is most interesting . While earlier swords were inclined to have the cross in their blades, the fashion of placing crosses in the pommel increased. Naturally this might also be considered transitional, but certainly such use occurred earlier as well.
The use of the cross, with its strong presence in variation in heraldry, is tempting to try to use to identify ownership, fealty or other classifications, as far as generally found, we can presume it was primarily a talismanically placed device. In the pommel, which often carried religious relics or charms this seems well placed.

The crosses most often seen were the Greek cross or the Cross Potent, but this is the Cross Fleury, with the arms ended in split leaves, as in the Fluer-de Lis. This one is unusual in having the bases of each arm end rounded as in a bud, rather than intersecting.

Naturally it seems almost instinctive to regard this as French, however in those times things were not quite as clear cut nationally.

Jean Luc, your sword here has inspired me to pretty much 'hit the books', so I beg everyone's indulgence as I rattle away here in another of my 'epic' ramblings. I wanted to learn as much as I could about this sword and its times, so these are the results of my findings.

An absolutely fascinating and exciting piece of history!

[Cerjak]

Dear Jim

I should like to thank you very much for the interest which you have shown and expressed in your comment and also in your research about this sword. I would like to focus on the the cross symbol .
There are a multitude of differents types and I ‘m not sure but It seems to me that this cross could be a cross Moline also called “French croix ancrée”.
See below some exemplar I have found.

Best

Jean-Luc

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Dear Jim

I should like to thank you very much for the interest which you have shown and expressed in your comment and also in your research about this sword. I would like to focus on the the cross symbol .
There are a multitude of differents types and I ‘m not sure but It seems to me that this cross could be a cross Moline also called “French croix ancrée”.
See below some exemplar I have found.

Best

Jean-Luc

Salaams Cerjak .This is a great subject entering the world of Heraldic symbols and note the religious connotation whereby the sword took precedence over any other weapon thus the position of the cross on the pommel is important. Obviously the insignia occurs on shields etc however it is the sword with which the knight swore allegiance and it stands to reason that the hilt was chosen to carry such an emblem upon the pommel.

[cornelistromp]

some side notes;

the sword can be 14thc..... but also as late as 1450, which I count a very good probability.

the coat of arms is of d'Aubusson de La Feuillade Family from france. see Attachements.

in the French language for d'Aubusson de La Feuillade
http://gillesdubois.blogspot.nl/2008...daubusson.html

maybe and with some Imagination the sword of Pierre D'Aubusson! it has the same blade Geometry and pommel as on a 15thC drawing of Pierre D'Aubusson.

Pierre d'Aubusson, Grand Master of the order of Knight hospitaller, St. John on Rhodes in the late 15 thC.



you should try to find the original of this reproduction;
http://www.histophile.com/epee-d-aubusson-e3288.html


best,
jasper

[Cerjak]

[QUOTE=cornelistromp]some side notes;

the sword can be 14thc..... but also as late as 1450, which I count a very good probability.

the coat of arms is of d'Aubusson de La Feuillade Family from france. see Attachements.

in the French language for d'Aubusson de La Feuillade
http://gillesdubois.blogspot.nl/2008...daubusson.html

maybe and with some Imagination the sword of Pierre D'Aubusson! it has the same blade Geometry and pommel as on a 15thC drawing of Pierre D'Aubusson.

Pierre d'Aubusson, Grand Master of the order of Knight hospitaller, St. John on Rhodes in the late 15 thC.



you should try to find the original of this reproduction;
http://www.histophile.com/epee-d-aubusson-e3288.html


best,
jasper[/QUOTE
Thank you Jasper .So it is a French sword and at less from a member of the order of Knight hospitaller but I did not expected this sword to be mid 15 Century..
Jim had the good feeling that it could be French “Naturally it seems almost instinctive to regard this as French, however in those times things were not quite as clear cut nationally”

best
Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Hi Jean-Luc,
If this is indeed a sword used by your compatriote Pierre d'Aubusson, you are blessed with luck.
The guy was a military might; i like his idea to install a chain at the entrance of the harbour, to block the enemy's ships entrance.
Another chance would be that this sword belonged to another member of the family, like his brother Antoine, who was with him at the siege.
What would Jasper say about that ?


.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent entry Jasper! Thank you so much for adding this information which is pretty exciting. It is interesting to see the modern reproduction makers attention to this sword, and of course it would be amazing to see the original sword of this key figure against the typically well embellished modern interpretation.
While we can speculate and optimistically hope that this very sword could be the one....but that is of course very optimistic, particularly without any sort of progressive lineage or provenance.

In looking at the association to the Knights of St. John, or Hospitallers, or of Rhodes or Malta, all names of this order which was founded in Jerusalem by Papal Bull in 1113.....it was contemporary and independent of the much more heralded Knights Templar, operating in similar manner.
It however had its own separate Papal Charter, and when Pope Clement dissolved the Knights Templar in the events of 1312, much of their properties and holdings were dispensed to the Hospitallers.

After the fall of Jerusalem to Muslim forces, this order went to Rhodes, then Malta, and operated as sovereign in Rhodes, while under suzerainty of Viceroy of Sicily as vassal in Malta, these events end of 13th c.

During the 14th c. the Knights of Rhodes successfully thwarted attacks by Sultan of Egypt (1444) and Ottoman forces after their victories over Constantinople and the Byzantines in 1480.

It is worthy of note here that the order as Knights of St. John had also well settled the regions of Solingen in the early 15th century ("By the Sword", Richard Cohen, 2002,p.117) and in their function of protecting pilgrims on their routes to and from Jerusalem and in crusades, often took sword smiths along where they were to learn more of the techniques of their rivals.

So questions would be, is this indeed a 14th c production of this type sword as per Oakeshott? As he notes in his works, it is difficult to specifically designate into exact category in many cases, and that these often diffused into each other as obviously makers in various regions and their shops or descendants often carried styles forward longer than others. Some of the types indeed continued as contemporaries with those that had theoretically superceded them. Thus it is quite possible for this sword in type to have been 15th c.

With the facts that this cross is associated with a prominent French family in a powerful military/religious order in the crusades, who also had components in Solingen and operated as a vassal state to Sicily in Malta this
would suggest that this sword could remotely have been French, but probably Frankish made, or perhaps Italian as per the Malta situation.

Thus 'pattern' or 'type' would remain speculative much as its period, but presented here are the options.
Also, would a prominent figure of this Order display his own family arms' cross, or the more known 'Maltese Cross" of the order with its key eight points?

Still, this sword, presumed as authentic as appears in photos, may have come from any of the sources noted, may seen use in a wide spectrum of possibilities.

[Andreas]

It should be noted that the cross moline or anchory, is a quite common charge in heraldry and as such is shared across Europe by numerous families as their coat of arms.
Andreas