Identification help needed

Martin Lubojacky · 7th March 2016, 08:53 AM

Hello,
Please, could you help with identification ? (and any relating info is welcome).
All parts are original, firmly keeping together, no damages. The sabre is not big (altogether cca 90 cms), but is heavy, The haft is made of very hard wood (something like cherry). Supension (rings) are big, as you can see, very strong. The blade is similar to typical e.g. Austro-Hungarian troopers sabers from the second part of 19th century. Overall it resembles me Polish sabres, but I put in into this forum because of the marks on the blade (producer/state armoury ?). My idea is it could be from the end of 19th/beginning 20th century.
Regards,
Martin

David R · 7th March 2016, 11:20 AM

I am going to make a flying leap of deduction here, and vote for it being Afghan Army, late 19th century.

David R · 7th March 2016, 11:22 AM

The reasons, the slightly awkward proportions married to competent manufacture, the Arabic style blade stamp, and what looks somewhat like the Afghan arsenal stamp.
I will take a second guess (saver) on it being Iranian Army of the same period. Both Nations were modernising their armies along Western lines resulting in some weapons that had the look, but not quite the proportions, of European gear.

Martin Lubojacky · 7th March 2016, 12:01 PM

Thank you David. I am allied to your logic. (Now I also heard for my friends, that it may be Armenian production stamp and Ottoman armoury mark, allegedly turn of 19/20th centuries - but this is also guess .... )

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2016, 06:29 PM

I think this is actually an Italian cavalry sabre of mid 19th c. or later style.
I don't have my copy at the moment, but the answer may be in:
"Armi Bianchi Militaire Italiene" C. Calamendrei, Florence, 1987

These curious 'finger stalls' in the grip are something that occurs on a number of Italian swords up into WWII, and it seems something Kronckew and I discussed a couple of years ago.

If you look at the basic hilt profile and particularly the wood on the hilt on this example attached, the similarities are somewhat compelling. I am really not sure what the blade stamps would be for, but would point out that Italian presence in Ethiopia and N. Africa was strong in the 1930s and before. In Harar, Ethiopia at the turn of the century prior to WWI most of the arms importers were Armenians, and of course the Ottoman connections may play in here as well.

Martin Lubojacky · 8th March 2016, 08:50 AM

Thank you Jim for your interesting input.
Therethrough, from my point of view, the number of possibilities widens -- from Afghanistan to Italy. There are two important things - the saber should be mentioned somewhere as a model (it was sure produced in series), and I would not underestimate stamps on the blade , too. I would be interested in standpoint of experts on Ottoman weapons from the beginning of 20th century, too. Could we shift the thread to "nonethnographis weapons, too ?
Regards,
Martin

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2016, 05:00 PM

I think David made a well reasoned guess and his notes on the modernization of the Afghan and Iranian armies in the latter 19th century are well placed.
However the primary influences in these countries were Great Britain and Russia and not Italy. These two powers were involved in the contest for Afghan regions in what became known as 'The Great Game' ( book by that title by Peter Hopkirk) with Iran competing as well.

I can see the inclination toward the Afghan military sword of the 19th century, but the hilt, blade etc are all different other than being a stirrup hilt and the blade is profoundly channeled.
These stamps in this blade are in some ways mindful of those in the Afghan swords, but in this case have nothing to do with the Afghan stamp representing the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif, which is that of the arsenal at Machin Khana in Kabul and is found on the Afghan military swords.

Actually, as I noted, these distinctive 'finger stalls' are characteristic of a good number of Italian military swords of the 19th c.
In the Calamendrei book I noted, the two most predominantly similar examples to yours are the 'sciabola sul modello adottato in Piedmont nel 1855' (p.256); and another sciabola ' official di fanteria' of 1854-59.

I personally believe that the numerous examples seen in the Italian references showing these features as characteristic of Italian military swords are compelling enough to classify this as Italian.
I will note however the disparities in securing an 'exact' match.

The Italian patterns noted seem to have straight sabre blades, while yours has a curved blade. The scabbards of these Italian military patterns, like most European forms later in the century, have single carry rings rather than double as yours has.

The quillon on the patterns referenced is the turned down type, yours is a straight projecting type (it seems a French affectation).

The langet on the hilts of the patterns shown is squared and blockish, while yours is more elliptical (as also seemingly a French affectation of earlier sabres).

So using the deductive methods in degree, since the Piedmont is one of the northernmost regions of Italy bordering France, perhaps this might be a variant reflecting such influences?

While not wishing to enter into the geopolitical climate of the 1850s and into the century further, it seems that France of course was allied with Great Britain in the Crimean War in their alignment defending Ottoman Turkey against Russia, with a degree of Italian support.

It is tempting to consider that these influences might have evolved together in this weapon which seems a variant of known Italian patterns, and most likely of course post Crimea (1854-56) . Here I would point out that in the late 1860s Italy was deeply in its own wars of unification between its many principalities and city states.
This might have been a perfect climate for such ersatz variants, and the match of an Ottoman military blade and scabbard to an Italian hilt seems quite possible.

These thoughts are admittedly tenuously speculative, but if they bring forth better informed thoughts and observations, well worth stating .

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2016, 05:50 PM

Martin, after that thrilling romp through deductive reasoning (wearing my deer stalker hat and pipe) which really did seem logical,
look what I found in my notes and archived images!!!

It is maddeningly uncited, but listed as a 19th century Ottoman Turkish military sword.

So the question remains, where did this finger stall feature come in? and since it is so prevalent on Italian swords, what prompted the influence?

Note this Ottoman sword has the similar protruding quillon.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th March 2016, 08:33 PM

Salaams Jim, Nice to find that reference ...The stamps are clearly Ottoman arabic with God on the circular stamp and rasul...etc etc unreadable on the other... invoking the style of inscription which is among other things Talismanic by definition.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Martin Lubojacky · 8th March 2016, 09:26 PM

Jim,
Tank you really very much ! You located the sword ! So it is Ottoman (and those friends who said "Ottoman armoury stamp" were also probably true). Please, isn´t there more detailed information - especially dating in your source ? Could you disclose that source ?

Ibrahim,
Also thanks for your stamps remarks. Plase, could you look at that Crete long knife thread ? - I received another translation (Osman Han -- which is different from Ali -- do you think it could be coused by using osmanli, i.e.Ottoman arabic ??))
Best
Martin

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2016, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Jim,
Tank you really very much ! You located the sword ! So it is Ottoman (and those friends who said "Ottoman armoury stamp" were also probably true). Please, isn´t there more detailed information - especially dating in your source ? Could you disclose that source ?

Ibrahim,
Also thanks for your stamps remarks. Plase, could you look at that Crete long knife thread ? - I received another translation (Osman Han -- which is different from Ali -- do you think it could be coused by using osmanli, i.e.Ottoman arabic ??))
Best
Martin

Martin, that's the problem. I located this image in scattered notes of mine listed as Ottoman military sabre of 19th c (I don't use such specific classifications lightly ) but could not find the source of origin. Somebody here had a reference of Ottoman military weapons, and I'd like to find that as well. It seems many of these anomalies fall into the 'Ottoman' netherworld as they were 'westernizing' their armies.

7th March 2016, 08:53 AM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Identification help needed Hello, Please, could you help with identification ? (and any relating info is welcome). All parts are original, firmly keeping together, no damages. The sabre is not big (altogether cca 90 cms), but is heavy, The haft is made of very hard wood (something like cherry). Supension (rings) are big, as you can see, very strong. The blade is similar to typical e.g. Austro-Hungarian troopers sabers from the second part of 19th century. Overall it resembles me Polish sabres, but I put in into this forum because of the marks on the blade (producer/state armoury ?). My idea is it could be from the end of 19th/beginning 20th century. Regards, Martin Attached Images

7th March 2016, 06:29 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I think this is actually an Italian cavalry sabre of mid 19th c. or later style. I don't have my copy at the moment, but the answer may be in: "Armi Bianchi Militaire Italiene" C. Calamendrei, Florence, 1987 These curious 'finger stalls' in the grip are something that occurs on a number of Italian swords up into WWII, and it seems something Kronckew and I discussed a couple of years ago. If you look at the basic hilt profile and particularly the wood on the hilt on this example attached, the similarities are somewhat compelling. I am really not sure what the blade stamps would be for, but would point out that Italian presence in Ethiopia and N. Africa was strong in the 1930s and before. In Harar, Ethiopia at the turn of the century prior to WWI most of the arms importers were Armenians, and of course the Ottoman connections may play in here as well. Attached Images

8th March 2016, 05:50 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Martin, after that thrilling romp through deductive reasoning (wearing my deer stalker hat and pipe) which really did seem logical, look what I found in my notes and archived images!!! It is maddeningly uncited, but listed as a 19th century Ottoman Turkish military sword. So the question remains, where did this finger stall feature come in? and since it is so prevalent on Italian swords, what prompted the influence? Note this Ottoman sword has the similar protruding quillon. Attached Images

7th March 2016, 11:20 AM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I am going to make a flying leap of deduction here, and vote for it being Afghan Army, late 19th century.

7th March 2016, 11:22 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	The reasons, the slightly awkward proportions married to competent manufacture, the Arabic style blade stamp, and what looks somewhat like the Afghan arsenal stamp. I will take a second guess (saver) on it being Iranian Army of the same period. Both Nations were modernising their armies along Western lines resulting in some weapons that had the look, but not quite the proportions, of European gear.

7th March 2016, 12:01 PM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you David. I am allied to your logic. (Now I also heard for my friends, that it may be Armenian production stamp and Ottoman armoury mark, allegedly turn of 19/20th centuries - but this is also guess .... )

8th March 2016, 08:50 AM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you Jim for your interesting input. Therethrough, from my point of view, the number of possibilities widens -- from Afghanistan to Italy. There are two important things - the saber should be mentioned somewhere as a model (it was sure produced in series), and I would not underestimate stamps on the blade , too. I would be interested in standpoint of experts on Ottoman weapons from the beginning of 20th century, too. Could we shift the thread to "nonethnographis weapons, too ? Regards, Martin

8th March 2016, 05:00 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I think David made a well reasoned guess and his notes on the modernization of the Afghan and Iranian armies in the latter 19th century are well placed. However the primary influences in these countries were Great Britain and Russia and not Italy. These two powers were involved in the contest for Afghan regions in what became known as 'The Great Game' ( book by that title by Peter Hopkirk) with Iran competing as well. I can see the inclination toward the Afghan military sword of the 19th century, but the hilt, blade etc are all different other than being a stirrup hilt and the blade is profoundly channeled. These stamps in this blade are in some ways mindful of those in the Afghan swords, but in this case have nothing to do with the Afghan stamp representing the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif, which is that of the arsenal at Machin Khana in Kabul and is found on the Afghan military swords. Actually, as I noted, these distinctive 'finger stalls' are characteristic of a good number of Italian military swords of the 19th c. In the Calamendrei book I noted, the two most predominantly similar examples to yours are the 'sciabola sul modello adottato in Piedmont nel 1855' (p.256); and another sciabola ' official di fanteria' of 1854-59. I personally believe that the numerous examples seen in the Italian references showing these features as characteristic of Italian military swords are compelling enough to classify this as Italian. I will note however the disparities in securing an 'exact' match. The Italian patterns noted seem to have straight sabre blades, while yours has a curved blade. The scabbards of these Italian military patterns, like most European forms later in the century, have single carry rings rather than double as yours has. The quillon on the patterns referenced is the turned down type, yours is a straight projecting type (it seems a French affectation). The langet on the hilts of the patterns shown is squared and blockish, while yours is more elliptical (as also seemingly a French affectation of earlier sabres). So using the deductive methods in degree, since the Piedmont is one of the northernmost regions of Italy bordering France, perhaps this might be a variant reflecting such influences? While not wishing to enter into the geopolitical climate of the 1850s and into the century further, it seems that France of course was allied with Great Britain in the Crimean War in their alignment defending Ottoman Turkey against Russia, with a degree of Italian support. It is tempting to consider that these influences might have evolved together in this weapon which seems a variant of known Italian patterns, and most likely of course post Crimea (1854-56) . Here I would point out that in the late 1860s Italy was deeply in its own wars of unification between its many principalities and city states. This might have been a perfect climate for such ersatz variants, and the match of an Ottoman military blade and scabbard to an Italian hilt seems quite possible. These thoughts are admittedly tenuously speculative, but if they bring forth better informed thoughts and observations, well worth stating .

8th March 2016, 08:33 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Jim, Nice to find that reference ...The stamps are clearly Ottoman arabic with God on the circular stamp and rasul...etc etc unreadable on the other... invoking the style of inscription which is among other things Talismanic by definition. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

8th March 2016, 09:26 PM	#10
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Jim, Tank you really very much ! You located the sword ! So it is Ottoman (and those friends who said "Ottoman armoury stamp" were also probably true). Please, isn´t there more detailed information - especially dating in your source ? Could you disclose that source ? Ibrahim, Also thanks for your stamps remarks. Plase, could you look at that Crete long knife thread ? - I received another translation (Osman Han -- which is different from Ali -- do you think it could be coused by using osmanli, i.e.Ottoman arabic ??)) Best Martin