The exhibition oriental weapons "The Mortal Beauty" of private collections in Russia,

[ariel]

OK, I am back:-)



I just want to put together some thoughts re. recent Elgood's book about arms & armour at Jaipur Court and how it changes our perception of Indian weapons collections all over the world in general ( our little private oases included, regretfully:-((( ) and Saltykov's contribution in particular.



One of the main ( if not THE MAIN!) theses of the book is the conclusion that many objects traditionally attributed to the 17-18 centuries were in fact made at the end of the 19th century and sold by itinerant vendors to tourists. This thesis is supported by the multiple lines of evidence and seems to be incontestable. The analysis of actual pieces and the points why they should be attributable to the 19th century is more complicated, and I would love to see a separate chapter summarizing distinguishing characteristics in an organized and systematic fashion. Otherwise, I have no doubt that Dr. Elgood himself can date the objects admirably well, but he did not teach me how to repeat the feat:-)

Well...
What was the price of "good" objects made and sold at the end of the 19th?

There are 3 damascened katars ( ##68,70,71) valued Rs 40, 50,and 150.
A bunch of tulwar hilts, similarly damascened , Rs.20-150
Shamshir Shikargah with true damascening, Rs.137
P.23 quotes "...swords, shields, daggers etc. from Agra, prices up to Rs.200"

These prices are in remarkable agreement with Prince Saltykov's acquisition at Lahori bazaar of "....2 metal shields, straight-bladed sword ( khanda?) and two curved daggers for a total of Rs.750..."

It seems likely that Saltykov bought cheap and newly-made objects: compare with #95, Afghani or Sindhi sword belonging to Mir Ibrahim ( Rs. 3,095),steel shield from Alwar armoury ( see #118) bought in 1830 for Rs. 1000, 2 swords presented by Aurangzeb to Raja Ram Singh ( Rs.2,000 and 3,000 respectively) or Ranjit Singh's sword at Rs. 10,000, half of which was for the blade alone. This were likely the "high-end" weapons he encountered at the Lahore Court and dismissed as having "no taste" ( or something like that.) Instead he went to the bazaar with predictable consequences...

In the book by Obraztsov about Oriental arms and armour in the Hermitage Museum I was able to find a single Indian example from the "Saltykov Collection": a lavishly damascened metal shield with no evidence of wear and tear , but with multiple forging defects, cracks masked by golden decorations. I wonder whether it could have been acquired in Lahore as part of the Rs.750 deal...



All his stuff ended in the Hermitage Museum and it might be interesting for the Museum poobahs to ask Dr. Elgood to re-evaluate Saltykov Collection: it may consist largely of late 19th century objects made for "those who travel" :-)

The same may apply to other major museums, especially if the date of acquisition is " second half of the 19th century" .

Elgood attributes quite a few objects in the Jaipur Armory to the same group, but I do not think that local Rajah were victims of deception: they themselves happily redecorated their new acquisitions, were more familiar with bazaar practices and ... well, an attempt to swindle an Indian Raja was rather dangerous for one's health:-)

On the other hand, tourists ( like Saltykov) or British officers and administrators were very legitimate targets.The wealth was thus redistributed in accordance with Karl Marx slogan " Exploit the exploiters!"

Personally, I am surely glad for not having lavishly adorned, damascened and artistically-decorated Indian swords:-)))

[estcrh]

Here is an example of the type of armor this nasel would have been attached to.

16/17th century Indian zirah khula (mail coif) with the upper part of the nasel missing.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

One of the main ( if not THE MAIN!) theses of the book is the conclusion that many objects traditionally attributed to the 17-18 centuries were in fact made at the end of the 19th century and sold by itinerant vendors to tourists.

Sold by "itinerant vendors" but made by whom? I have read several recollections by travelers to latter 1800s India were they were lamenting the lack of availability of authentically made weapons/armor. They also stated that there were still craftsmen that made these items in an authentic manner. Even in this time people or at least some seemed to be aware of the difference which apparently was not to hard to decern.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

The whole idea of the Forum is to exchange objective information ( interspersed, of course, with personal but objective interpretation of the content).

As to prince Saltykov, my opinion about him plummeted down after his badmouthing his host who invited him into his house. Kind of " The food was terrible, and the portions were too small". This is not something I find acceptable.

Ariel, I agree with you as far as exchanging information etc. Sometimes peoples opinions are completely different, in this case it is good to discuss the various sources/references that have formed these opinions. As long as it is an intelligent inquiry and not a personal attack this is an important feature of any forum, the ability to question someones sources, references and personal opinions.

On the matter of Prince Aleksei Dmitrievich Saltykov, I was under the impression that he was writing letters to his brother that were later published into what we are now reading (Lettres sur l'Inde, Author: Soltykoff, Prince Alexis, 1848). Was he actually "bad mouthing" his host or were his original letters just a clear picture of his observations that were not meant for publication. Maybe when published he should have edited what he wrote and removed any offensive remarks, it is hard to second guess now. The various versions of this book do contain some very good images that were supposedly made from his drawing.

[ariel]

To answer your question in a reasonably convincing fashion, I would have to quote several pages of Elgood's account of professional qualifications and the level of perfection achieved by local masters at that time.
I also was in your camp, but I was surprised to read the book: some of these people made stuff barely distinguishable from their celebrated ancestors. Yes, most of the stuff made then was for the foreign suckers, but Rajas maintained their own private workshops that continued to churn out items of the highest quality.
If you are into India, you must read this book. Marvelous source of information that changes one's beliefs once and for all.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Thanks for the very nice image of the vajra-mushti and bagh nakh, any idea what the two small items are in the lower right side?

That is what is written in the exhibition catalog:

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

OK, I am back:-)
I just want to put together some thoughts re. recent Elgood's book about arms & armour at Jaipur Court and how it changes our perception of Indian weapons collections all over the world in general ( our little private oases included, regretfully:-((( ) and Saltykov's contribution in particular.

One of the main ( if not THE MAIN!) theses of the book is the conclusion that many objects traditionally attributed to the 17-18 centuries were in fact made at the end of the 19th century and sold by itinerant vendors to tourists. This thesis is supported by the multiple lines of evidence and seems to be incontestable. The analysis of actual pieces and the points why they should be attributable to the 19th century is more complicated, and I would love to see a separate chapter summarizing distinguishing characteristics in an organized and systematic fashion. Otherwise, I have no doubt that Dr. Elgood himself can date the objects admirably well, but he did not teach me how to repeat the feat:-)

Well...
What was the price of "good" objects made and sold at the end of the 19th?

There are 3 damascened katars ( ##68,70,71) valued Rs 40, 50,and 150.
A bunch of tulwar hilts, similarly damascened , Rs.20-150
Shamshir Shikargah with true damascening, Rs.137
P.23 quotes "...swords, shields, daggers etc. from Agra, prices up to Rs.200"

These prices are in remarkable agreement with Prince Saltykov's acquisition at Lahori bazaar of "....2 metal shields, straight-bladed sword ( khanda?) and two curved daggers for a total of Rs.750..."

It seems likely that Saltykov bought cheap and newly-made objects: compare with #95, Afghani or Sindhi sword belonging to Mir Ibrahim ( Rs. 3,095),steel shield from Alwar armoury ( see #118) bought in 1830 for Rs. 1000, 2 swords presented by Aurangzeb to Raja Ram Singh ( Rs.2,000 and 3,000 respectively) or Ranjit Singh's sword at Rs. 10,000, half of which was for the blade alone. This were likely the "high-end" weapons he encountered at the Lahore Court and dismissed as having "no taste" ( or something like that.) Instead he went to the bazaar with predictable consequences...

In the book by Obraztsov about Oriental arms and armour in the Hermitage Museum I was able to find a single Indian example from the "Saltykov Collection": a lavishly damascened metal shield with no evidence of wear and tear , but with multiple forging defects, cracks masked by golden decorations. I wonder whether it could have been acquired in Lahore as part of the Rs.750 deal...

All his stuff ended in the Hermitage Museum and it might be interesting for the Museum poobahs to ask Dr. Elgood to re-evaluate Saltykov Collection: it may consist largely of late 19th century objects made for "those who travel" :-)

The same may apply to other major museums if the date of acquisition is " second half of the 19th century" .

Elgood attributes quite a few objects in the Jaipur Armory to the same group, but I do not think that local Rajah were victims of deception: they themselves happily redecorated their new acquisitions, were more familiar with bazaar practices and ... well, an attempt to swindle an Indian Raja was rather dangerous for one's health:-)

On the other hand, tourists ( like Saltykov) or British officers and administrators were very legitimate targets.The wealth was thus redistributed in accordance with Karl Marx slogan " Exploit the exploiters!"

Personally, I am surely glad for not having lavishly adorned, damascened and artistically-decorated Indian swords:-)))

Ariel, why write so many words? Why give an example of a book Hermitage that shows the arms and armor not only of India but also of other countries?
(Although, I'm sorry about this. I'd really like to see a book, in which I want to read about such items:
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p...518781/?lng=en
)

Probably better to listen to what respected people wrote? For example, lord Egerton:

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The various versions of this book do contain some very good images that were supposedly made from his drawing.

Yes, Saltykov made a lot of watercolors and pencil drawings while traveling in India. If you are wondering tonight when I'm at home, I can show you some of them.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Thanks for the very nice image of the vajra-mushti and bagh nakh, any idea what the two small items are in the lower right side?

They look like Scribes tools Estcrh.

No much to add other than thanks for sharing the images of the exhibition Mahratt, it is greatly appreciated.

I see one of my old Patissa there too...I am very glad to see it displayed and hopefully well published.

Gavin

Edit; I see a crossed post, thank you for the further confirmation Mahratt.
The straight type is sometimes found with the Pia Kaetta knives too.

[mahratt]

Photos:

[mahratt]

Photos:

[Nathaniel]

Lovely items nicely displayed...a delight to see! Thanks for sharing, mahratt !

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Yes, Saltykov made a lot of watercolors and pencil drawings while traveling in India. If you are wondering tonight when I'm at home, I can show you some of them.

If you have images of the painting/drawings that would be great.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

That is what is written in the exhibition catalog:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

They look like Scribes tools Estcrh. I see a crossed post, thank you for the further confirmation Mahratt. The straight type is sometimes found with the Pia Kaetta knives too.

Thanks, I would have guessed they were medical tools.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

If you have images of the painting/drawings that would be great.

I think it would be correct to create a separate topic on the trip to India Prince Saltykov.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21033

[mahratt]

Now back in the exhibition:

[harrywagner]

Thanks for posting this. I love these virtual museum tours. Beautiful work.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks for posting this. I love these virtual museum tours. Beautiful work.

I'm glad you like it.

[mahratt]

Photos:

[mahratt]

"Chinese" part of the exhibition

[mahratt]

Photos:

[mahratt]

Photos:

[Gavin Nugent]

WOW! I love the rare variations seen in this collection, thank you for sharing....that knuckle duster and 4 section pole arm was a real treat!


Gavin

[ariel]

Gavin,
As I told from the very beginning, it IS a good and useful book.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Gavin,
As I told from the very beginning, it IS a good and useful book.

Yes, Gavin, I agree with Ariel. This is a good book. There's a lot of interesting items. But be careful to dating. Often, they are wrong. And do not trust analogies with objects from museums of the world.

[Jens Nordlunde]

If you look at dagger no 5 I find a few things quite strange.
The author(s) have forgotten that there is also gold on the blade, and they give three references to museums. One would assume that the references were to daggers alike, but they are not, they refer to daggers with pistol hilts, but of different material and different decoration, and that is of little interest in this connection.
What is of interest is the blade. Straight double edged blade decorated in silver and gold in floral motif. In all the years I have collected I have only seen four of these blades. One in this book, there is one in the MET, there is one in the Gugong Museum in Beijing and one in a privat collection.
When I, in all the years I have been collecting, have only seen four of these blades, I would say that they are rare, but I have seen a lot of pistol shaped jade hilt in the same time.

A pity that the inscriptions on nos 51, 60 and 69 have not been translated, and it would have been interesting to know if nos 51 and 69 have an inscription on both sides of the blade.
No 69 could be from Bundi so the question mark is well placed, but nos 70 and 71 are from Bundi, so there would be no need for a question mark.

Katars nos 53, 54 and 57 are garsoe katars from Sind.

I have not read it all yet, but so far I enjoy the pictures.

[mahratt]

Photo

[roshan]

Originally Posted by ariel

Just a couple of comments:

First chapter:

1. The issue of Kshatriyas, lower castes, and service of ancient Rajputs, Mahrattas, Gujaratis etc in the navy and airforce. I enjoyed the joke. A very good one!

However, the author mixes two totally unrelated categories. Kshatriyas are members of a religious stratum whereas Rajputs, Gujaratis, Sindhis etc. have nothing to do with belonging to a particular caste: they are members of ethnic/national/ kingdom entities.
Contrasting Kshatriyas and, say, Rajputs is equivalent to stating that medieval European Princes wore armour, but the French, English and Italians did not. Apples and oranges, kind of....

Hi Ariel - to a large extent, you are also making the same mistake. For example, there are Sindhi Rajputs (Soomros, Sammas, Sodhas and tons of others), Punjabi Rajputs, Gujarati Rajputs (Solangis, etc) and so on.

Rajput is a type of caste, not an ethnicity like Sindhis or Gujaratis. Saying "Rajputs and Sindhis" is exactly akin to the example you gave.

[ariel]

You are correct in your example, but please notice that I was talking about Rajputs and the rest also in terms of their national/ ethnic/ political entities. Just wanted to pass across the idea that Rajputs were not included in the tradition Hindu division of castes.
Perhaps, I needed to phrase it better, no?

[mahratt]

Photos