Chinese axes

Mercenary · 12th January 2016, 09:52 AM

Dear All

What do you think about this? The wu-shu weapon of 18-20th century or more early the real weapon?
Weight: 2.8 and 3.2 kg. Length: 47 and 50 cm.

Mercenary · 12th January 2016, 05:46 PM

For comparison there were statutory samples:

Timo Nieminen · 12th January 2016, 09:18 PM

As a matched pair, I'd assume it's a martial artist's weapon. Doesn't mean it's just for performance - could be for bodyguard work, etc.

Twin weapons is a martial artist thing (in a broad sense of the term). We see various civilian twin weapons, for militia, gang members, personal protection, bodyguards, etc. Two weapons does 3 useful things: it can help fight against long weapons (like spears) while being easier to carry than a long weapon, it shows the public (including those who might evaluate whether you are an easy target for robbery) that you might be a skilled martial artist, and lets you do flashy martial arts demonstration on the street (so the spectators give you more money).

But twin weapons are insignificant on the battlefield. I'd expect a short axe on the battlefield to be used with a shield. So, as a matched pair, an old martial arts weapon or modern. These look traditionally made. If they have a hardened steel inserted edge, probably old (18-19th century?).

Peter Dekker · 13th January 2016, 02:52 PM

What an interesting set, thanks for sharing. One doesn't encounter Chinese axes that often!

I largely agree with Timo on the use of double weapons. Many martial artists doubled as actual fighters and performance artists. They gave martial arts performances in town centers to recruit more members, while they could rent themselves out as local bodyguards or even to train militia if need arose. As such most of them were well versed in both actual fighting as well as showmanship.

I want to add though that twin weapons were in fact issued to some Chinese troops in the Qing, mainly in two categories:
1. The Green Standard Army, comprised of all Han soldiers. Basically the old Ming army. They were mostly deployed as local guards and peacekeepers in towns and cities across the empire and rarely had a front-line function. Among the twin weapons carried by them were axes, maces, and double sabers. So although they were part of the Qing military, their local role was pretty similar to that of some martial artists.

2. Southern troops that fought in the confines of ships or dense urban environments. These were issued double hudiedao from around the 1860's onwards. Some 19th century battle paintings show ships full of soldiers heading out to find the British, where the troops are comprised of troops with double weapons, shield / knife combinations, spearmen, musketeers, and archers.

What you have here seems to be a set of 錄營雙鉞 Lüying shuangyue or "Green Standard Army Double Battle Axes" described in the Huangchao Liqi Tushi. Axes in this work are 1 chi 6 cun long, roughly around 50 cm.

Huangchao Liqi Tushi The is a work of Qing imperial regulations on ceremonial regalia, including weapons for wars and parades. The original manuscript was finished in 1759 and subsequent editions were printed (with some alterations) in 1766, 1801, and 1899. I add the relevant page.

There was one Manchu division with axes; the Vanguard of the Eight Banners, but these were single, long handled ones. The parade versions were often elaborately gilt. The back ends of these axes were squared, not like the curving down end of yours.

It's interesting to note that your axes have the same overall shape as this magnificent parade axe that was sold on Sotheby's a while ago: http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...-of-art-l10211

Mercenary · 13th January 2016, 05:12 PM

Timo Nieminen
Peter Dekker

Thanks a lot! Excellent and very useful information. I could not find any similar items. On all of pictures are shown with long staff only. Or some photos:

Peter Dekker · 13th January 2016, 08:38 PM

You're most welcome!

The middle one is the regulation pattern of the Right Wing of the Vanguard of the Eight Banners, carried in the tri-annual Grand Review of the Troops in Beijing.

The top looks like a more daily court item, used for more frequent ceremonial processions and court assemblies. The bottom one seems like a real user that was perhaps carried by certain guards. It is not covered in the official illustrated regulations but it's in good company: A lot of weapons aren't. Lists of varieties actual weapons issued in non-illustrated regulations are far longer than those in the illustrated ones. Unfortunately, often we only have names and don't know what the items looked like.

Peter

12th January 2016, 09:52 AM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Chinese axes Dear All What do you think about this? The wu-shu weapon of 18-20th century or more early the real weapon? Weight: 2.8 and 3.2 kg. Length: 47 and 50 cm. Attached Images

12th January 2016, 05:46 PM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	For comparison there were statutory samples: Attached Images

13th January 2016, 02:52 PM	#4
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	What an interesting set, thanks for sharing. One doesn't encounter Chinese axes that often! I largely agree with Timo on the use of double weapons. Many martial artists doubled as actual fighters and performance artists. They gave martial arts performances in town centers to recruit more members, while they could rent themselves out as local bodyguards or even to train militia if need arose. As such most of them were well versed in both actual fighting as well as showmanship. I want to add though that twin weapons were in fact issued to some Chinese troops in the Qing, mainly in two categories: 1. The Green Standard Army, comprised of all Han soldiers. Basically the old Ming army. They were mostly deployed as local guards and peacekeepers in towns and cities across the empire and rarely had a front-line function. Among the twin weapons carried by them were axes, maces, and double sabers. So although they were part of the Qing military, their local role was pretty similar to that of some martial artists. 2. Southern troops that fought in the confines of ships or dense urban environments. These were issued double hudiedao from around the 1860's onwards. Some 19th century battle paintings show ships full of soldiers heading out to find the British, where the troops are comprised of troops with double weapons, shield / knife combinations, spearmen, musketeers, and archers. What you have here seems to be a set of 錄營雙鉞 Lüying shuangyue or "Green Standard Army Double Battle Axes" described in the Huangchao Liqi Tushi. Axes in this work are 1 chi 6 cun long, roughly around 50 cm. Huangchao Liqi Tushi The is a work of Qing imperial regulations on ceremonial regalia, including weapons for wars and parades. The original manuscript was finished in 1759 and subsequent editions were printed (with some alterations) in 1766, 1801, and 1899. I add the relevant page. There was one Manchu division with axes; the Vanguard of the Eight Banners, but these were single, long handled ones. The parade versions were often elaborately gilt. The back ends of these axes were squared, not like the curving down end of yours. It's interesting to note that your axes have the same overall shape as this magnificent parade axe that was sold on Sotheby's a while ago: http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...-of-art-l10211 Attached Images

13th January 2016, 05:12 PM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Timo Nieminen Peter Dekker Thanks a lot! Excellent and very useful information. I could not find any similar items. On all of pictures are shown with long staff only. Or some photos: Attached Images

12th January 2016, 09:18 PM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	As a matched pair, I'd assume it's a martial artist's weapon. Doesn't mean it's just for performance - could be for bodyguard work, etc. Twin weapons is a martial artist thing (in a broad sense of the term). We see various civilian twin weapons, for militia, gang members, personal protection, bodyguards, etc. Two weapons does 3 useful things: it can help fight against long weapons (like spears) while being easier to carry than a long weapon, it shows the public (including those who might evaluate whether you are an easy target for robbery) that you might be a skilled martial artist, and lets you do flashy martial arts demonstration on the street (so the spectators give you more money). But twin weapons are insignificant on the battlefield. I'd expect a short axe on the battlefield to be used with a shield. So, as a matched pair, an old martial arts weapon or modern. These look traditionally made. If they have a hardened steel inserted edge, probably old (18-19th century?).

13th January 2016, 08:38 PM	#6
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	You're most welcome! The middle one is the regulation pattern of the Right Wing of the Vanguard of the Eight Banners, carried in the tri-annual Grand Review of the Troops in Beijing. The top looks like a more daily court item, used for more frequent ceremonial processions and court assemblies. The bottom one seems like a real user that was perhaps carried by certain guards. It is not covered in the official illustrated regulations but it's in good company: A lot of weapons aren't. Lists of varieties actual weapons issued in non-illustrated regulations are far longer than those in the illustrated ones. Unfortunately, often we only have names and don't know what the items looked like. Peter