Candi Sukuh carving, keris mythology

[Pusaka]

"The scene depicted Bhima as the blacksmith on the left forging the metal, Ganesha in the center, and Arjuna on the right operating the piston bellows to blow air into the furnace. The wall behind the blacksmith displays various items manufactured in the forge, including kris. These representations of the kris in the Candi Sukuh established the fact that by the year 1437 the kris had already gained an important place within Javanese culture."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

Bhima and Arjuna are characters of the mahabharata and Indonesia has its own version of that epic which is traditionally depicted in the shadow puppet plays.

My question would be is there any scene in Indonesian mahabharata or shadow play that in anyway corresponds to the scene depicted in the Candi Sukuh carving and if so what is the details of the story?

In addition if you have been passed ANY story's (myth etc) about the origins of the keris or the first empu/Pande if you could share those tales that would be great!

[Pusaka]

"According to legend, Empu Ramadi around A.D. 230 made the first kris. Early krises were leaf-shaped and were called pasopati, paso or pisau, meaning knife, and pati, meaning deadly. Antique krises are kept as heirlooms or votive objects, and some are said to possess magic power. "

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...liest-weapons/

I found the above interesting because it is also what I heard, anybody know who Empu Ramadi is. Did some google searches and he is described as the empu of the gods.

[drdavid]

Hi Pusaka
I assume you are familiar with this scholarly piece http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html
drdavid

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

"According to legend, Empu Ramadi around A.D. 230 made the first kris. Early krises were leaf-shaped and were called pasopati, paso or pisau, meaning knife, and pati, meaning deadly. Antique krises are kept as heirlooms or votive objects, and some are said to possess magic power. "

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...liest-weapons/

I found the above interesting because it is also what I heard, anybody know who Empu Ramadi is. Did some google searches and he is described as the empu of the gods.

There is quite a bit of highly questionable information in this article regarding keris. People say a lot of things about keris. Not all of it is correct.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by drdavid

Hi Pusaka
I assume you are familiar with this scholarly piece http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html
drdavid

I quickly read it now, was surprised the image I posted above was not in it because the blade nearest the smith in the carving is very keris like.

Also is Arjuna or Bhima mentioned in the Ramayana?

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

There is quite a bit of highly questionable information in this article regarding keris. People say a lot of things about keris. Not all of it is correct.

Yeah but mythology or legend is not history, that the smith of gods ramayadi made the first keris is obviously mythology.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Also is Arjuna or Bhima mentioned in the Ramayana?

No, but they are major characters in the Mahabharata, including Arjuna also a major character in the Bhagavad-Gita.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Yeah but mythology or legend is not history, that the smith of gods ramayadi made the first keris is obviously mythology.

I was more referring to many other questionable statements that are not being presented as mythology or legend in their section on keris...that curved blades first appeared around 329 AD (i can't say i am aware of any evidence that puts the blade we recognize as a keris this early, yet alone wavy blades, and why such a specific date as 329 anyway). Sarpa lumaku (walking serpent) is also just one of many different forms of the wavy blade, though it seems to be the one that the silat community have latched onto. I am also confused by their assertion that the "the pamor blade-welding technique also began to die out after the Majapahit era" (i would think quite the opposite) and of course they put forth that old legend that the keris traditionally used meteoric ore long before the only recorded discovery of such iron-bearing meteorites in Prambanan in the late 18th century.
Unfortunately it seems to me that in most cases silat schools put forth a rather skewed and limited viewpoint of the keris, falling back on legend and mythology much too much in order to better fit it into their "pantheon of deadly weapons". But culturally the keris is so much more than merely another weapon to be wielded in martial contest. The specifics of its place within Indonesian societies has indeed changed over time with the influx of different influences, but it has always been far more than a just weapon, even a magickal one imbued with a living spirit. It has connective relationship and deep symbolic meaning throughout the grand scheme of the Indonesian cultural identity.
To return to your original question, i am not sure that i personally have enough knowledge of Mahabharata to accurately answer you. However, while they certainly did place their own local flavor on Hinduism in the Mojopahit era i have always assumed that the Mahahharta told a very specific tale from Hindu mythology. So i am not sure that they would have added any scenes into the wayang to depict the forging scene from Candi Sukuh, though there may indeed be a corresponding scene already present in that epic. Of course, wayang has added items that are culturally specific to the area, so you will find keris present even though they obviously did not exist in the original Hindu epic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata

[Pusaka]

Mythology is important because in ancient times they believed that to be real history and even today in Silat schools, even according to the historians of the karaton surakarta the first age of the keris was Empu Ramadi of the Purwacarita kingdom. Official karaton surakata website below

https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...ml&prev=search

So why is this mythology important? well I believe that image I posted above has been incorrectly identified. To know what it depicts you have to know the mythology.

I believe that image is commemorative and was put there by ancient people in that location because according to mythology it was in that place mount Lawu, the Purwacarita kingdom that the divine Empu Hyang Ramadi forged the first keris at the behest of king Maha Dewa Buda, the Hyang Guru.

The carving at Candi Sukuh on mount Lawu was put there by people who believed this mythology to be history, the smith at the left of the image is the divine Empu Ramadi and the elephant headed figure is the Hyang Guru instructing him to make the keris.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Battara

No, but they are major characters in the Mahabharata, including Arjuna also a major character in the Bhagavad-Gita.

If the images at Candi Sukuh depict the ramayan then it cant be Bhima or Ajuna because they are in the mahabharata (part of which is the Bhagavad-Gita)

[A. G. Maisey]

It is probably not wise to attempt to understand the importance of Candi Sukuh by a direct reference to any of the great Hindu epics. Candi Sukuh is very special case and deserves careful attention in its own right, if we are to come to any understanding at all of the messages that are put forward in the Candi Sukuh reliefs.

The message that is contained in the stele that is under discussion here is very probably more relevant to the renewal of souls, and the connection in Javanese thought between the esoteric powers of the pande and the cycle of birth - death - re-birth.

There are several things that must never be forgotten when we set out to try to understand Sukuh.

Firstly, it was built on the outskirts of the Majapahit kingdom.

Secondly, it was built at a time when the Majapahit kingdom was already beginning to show the signs of its eventual implosion.

Thirdly, it was built in a location that in itself carries a very special significance, one that can only be understood by a person who has some understanding of the world view of the Javanese farmer, and the farmer's relationship to Mother Earth.

Fourthly, the artistic style employed in the Sukuh carvings is more closely related to Javanese indigenous art, than to the Javanese style of the Late Classical Period in Jawa.

The fifth thing that it is essential to understand, not only in respect of the Sukuh stele that began this discussion, but in respect of any attempt to understand any Javanese monumental or other message, is that what we may think we are seeing is not necessarily what the person who originated the message intended to be seen. All Javanese messages, particularly in respect of monumental messages must be approached as a riddle that may be able to be understood by somebody with the requisite level of knowledge. This "requisite knowledge" would embrace as a bare minimum the ability to interpret that which is seen in terms of the Candra Sangkala, this by itself is not sufficient, but it is a good fundamental beginning.

A good beginning to the study of Candi Sukuh is this article:-

http://cip.cornell.edu/DPubS?service...ndo/1107006615

Stanley O'Connor does not have all the answers by any means, but he does give us some insight into the problems that are faced by anybody attempting to understand the messages of Candi Sukuh.

I've said this more times than I can remember, but it is the one basic truth in the study of the keris:-

do not attempt to understand the keris by study of the keris: you will learn nothing at all that is worthwhile

if you wish to understand the keris you must study Javanese culture and society, from that foundation you may eventually come to understand a little about the keris.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The message that is contained in the stele that is under discussion here is very probably more relevant to the renewal of souls, and the connection in Javanese thought between the esoteric powers of the pande and the cycle of birth - death - re-birth.

The five pandavas are seen by some as representing a manifestation of the five elements, the five personality types in man and the five stages of life.

Indeed some schools teach that the refining of metallic ores and the forging of the keris is an inner and outer process. Much in the same way as masons use the analogy of the construction of the temple for the building of the divine man.
The empu is simultaneously refining himself as he forges the blade in the fire. The fire and forging that removes the impurity's of the blade are also purifying his inner nature. In this School of thought then the 16 types of bumi from which a keris can be forged are simultaneously inside of you and without. The inner transmutation is Alchemical and is balanced by the outer smith work.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A good beginning to the study of Candi Sukuh is this article:-

http://cip.cornell.edu/DPubS?service...ndo/1107006615

Stanley O'Connor does not have all the answers by any means, but he does give us some insight into the problems that are faced by anybody attempting to understand the messages of Candi Sukuh.

Thanks Alan, that was a very interesting article with much food for thought. Most of us who have been studying keris for some time have, of course, seen this image of the Candi Sukuh before as it is often used to trace the origins of the keris at least back as far as we can date this temple. We can look at it and say with some confidence that the keris was an accepted part of the culture at least as early as 1437. However, most of us have not had the opportunity to actually travel to this place and for the most part it is just this one photograph that we refer to, without applying it in context to the place as a whole. Out of context we might ascribe many ideas to this scene in the smithy. As you say, Mr. O'Connor does not have all the answers, but i find his line of thought very intriguing.
One thing i am feeling more and more certain about is that this relief was not meant to depict or commemorate any divine figure instructing the first empu in the creation of the first keris. Why? Firstly what we assume to be a keris (and most probably is) does not have any central significance in the sculpture. It is in the background with other weapons and tools that are all given equal prominence. The blade that the smith is holding does not appear to be a keris to me, but is more likely a pedang of some sort. At least it does not seem to have the specific features that we recognize as a keris (asymmetric blade and gonjo). So the central message of this relief is not specifically about keris at all. The thing we all identify as a keris is merely one more object on the smith's wall of finished items.

[Pusaka]

However David if you knew the mythology you would know the first empu was responsible for creating not only keris but the keris was one of 15 weapons he made. Hence the reason why the smith is surrounded by the verity you observed. Secondly according to the mythology he used his fist as a hammer, his breath to blast heat the metal, his tong to quench the metal, his fingers to shape the metal and his knee as an anvil. As you will see that is all shown in that image.

[Pusaka]

Whilst I agree with J. O'Connor that smiting was used as an analogy of self transmutation through alchemical knowledge I disagree with the flavour he attributes to these alchemical teachings ie boozing, demonic gods (Ganesha), spirit possesion, death cult, sex orgies and dogs enveloped in hell fire.

Those things are to be avoided by those who study Ilmu, Kibatian, Kejawen

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Those things are to be avoided by those who study Ilmu, Kibatian, Kejawen

These are spiritual philosophies that were developed long after the period in which this temple was built. Kejawen and Kebatinan were not studied by the people of this era.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

These are spiritual philosophies that were developed long after the period in which this temple was built. Kejawen and Kebatinan were not studied by the people of this era.

Then I have to disagree they were studied in that period

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Then I have to disagree they were studied in that period

Well you are welcome to disagree, however the practice of Kejawen could not possibly exist in Jawa before the Islamic era as it is a syncretic system that is deeply based in Islam (specifically sufi) as well as elements of animistic, Hindu and Buddhist beliefs.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Well you are welcome to disagree, however the practice of Kejawen could not possibly exist in Jawa before the Islamic era as it is a syncretic system that is deeply based in Islam (specifically sufi) as well as elements of animistic, Hindu and Buddhist beliefs.

It has its origins in pre Islamic Indonesia. It is a melting pot of all those ideals but clearly Islam is the most recent addition. The Javanese did not need to wait for the coming of Islam to have a scene of morality (kejawen) or meditative/yogic practices (kabatinan)

[David]

Pusaka, perhaps you are familiar with Niels Mulder's book Mysticism in Java. If not you might find it a very good read.
http://tinyurl.com/jlhpd6w
"Kebatinan mysticism, as we know it, is clearly the product of late colonial society as it existed in the principalities, or sultanates, of South Central Java."

Here is another account from an article in New Dawn Magazine that clearly places the development of Kebatinan in the late colonial period of Java.
"The Javanese Science is a syncretic blend of Hindu-Buddhist, Sufi, Taoist and ancient animist strands, and evolved in the royal courts of Solo and nearby Jogjakarta in Central Java as a system of self-transformation confined solely to the aristocracy. But since the Revolution that ejected the Dutch rulers from the country after the Second World War, the Science emerged into the popular culture in the form of hundreds of kebatinan (or inner-being) sects, each one of which celebrates some aspect of the royal mother tradition. These esoteric sects have drawn a very large minority of the Indonesian population into their sphere, forming an immensely creative and diverse subculture at the leading edge of national life, very much as happened in Japan after the Second World War."

[Pusaka]

There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I have a fairly lengthy involvement with Candi Sukuh. My first visit was over 40 years ago, and when I live in Solo, actually in Palur, a little town out of Solo, my house is only a short drive from Sukuh. If I try to total up the actual time I have spent at Sukuh during the time I have been visiting that site, it totals to something in the neighbourhood of about 4 months' worth of 8 hour days. I've spent a lot of time at Candi Sukuh.

Everybody knows the stele shown in this thread, but what most people are not aware of is that there are a lot of other carvings there too, and those other carvings also tell a story.

Sukuh is really a bit of a mystery, and to my knowledge, the academic community is not yet in full agreement in respect of many of the matters surrounding Candi Sukuh. Even the name we give it:- 'candi' may not be accurate. Arguably, it has now assumed the status of a candi, but was it built as a candi? Very probably not.

There is now, and I feel, always has been, some misunderstandings about Sukuh. Certainly, the way in which the present generation of people in the area where it is located, have some ideas about it that vary widely from most of the academic opinions or ideas.

Back in the 1980's I did a pretty complete photographic record of Sukuh, but I've never digitised it. During my last visits in January to April this year I did another fairly complete photographic record on a digital camera. I intend to make this record available for viewing when I have processed the images.

[David]

Thanks Alan. I would love to see more images of the place once you have them worked up.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

Pusaka, i am afraid that academically this just does not bare out to be true. There is a great deal of Islamic Sufism in Kebatinan and a great many of the spiritual terms are described with Arabic words derived from those sufi practices. Again, Kebatinan is a syncretic system derived from a number of spiritual practices that were blended into a system in colonial Jawa, first within the royal courts and eventually amongst the commoners. What we know and what is practiced as Kebatinan would not exist without the Islamic influence in the mix as well. The practice of it today, while perfectly valid, probably has as much in common with the practices of pre-Islamic Java as modern Wicca does with pre-Christian Celtic paganism. Please understand that this does not mean that i do not think it a valid or useful spiritual practice. Quite the opposite actually.

[Pusaka]

David, from my point of view it is the Muslims who embraced pre Islamic internal practices in Indonesia that were Taoist and Vedic in origin. Muhammad was no yogi, you cant find these things in the quran, they are absent in arab nations which says something. The spiritual practices in Kebatinan such as meditation, concentration on energy centres (chakras), breathing exercises (pranayama) all of that is not Islamic in origin.
The goal of Kebatinan is to develop rasa, the intuitive knowing of the heart, that word Rasa is Sanskrit in origin.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

David, from my point of view it is the Muslims who embraced pre Islamic internal practices in Indonesia that were Taoist and Vedic in origin. Muhammad was no yogi, you cant find these things in the quran, they are absent in arab nations which says something. The spiritual practices in Kebatinan such as meditation, concentration on energy centres (chakras), breathing exercises (pranayama) all of that is not Islamic in origin.
The goal of Kebatinan is to develop rasa, the intuitive knowing of the heart, that word Rasa is Sanskrit in origin.

Pusaka, are you at all familiar with Sufism? Meditation and breathe control are indeed a part of the practice. It is the mystical aspects of Islam (Sufism) that is embraced in Kebabtinan, not what is practiced in mundane forms of that religion.
I do think that this side debate we are having has absolutely nothing to do with the aspects of the keris that either you or i wish to be discussing however. Why don't we turn our attention back there. Perhaps you could put forth exactly what it is you are hoping to discover through this line of inquiry around Candi Sukuh in regards to the keris.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Pusaka, are you at all familiar with Sufism? Meditation and breathe control are indeed a part of the practice. It is the mystical aspects of Islam (Sufism) that is embraced in Kebabtinan, not what is practiced in mundane forms of that religion.
I do think that this side debate we are having has absolutely nothing to do with the aspects of the keris that either you or i wish to be discussing however. Why don't we turn our attention back there. Perhaps you could put forth exactly what it is you are hoping to discover through this line of inquiry around Candi Sukuh in regards to the keris.

Your right, so I agree to disagree on this one
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...dom%22&f=false


At the moment my main interest is to find out if this mythical empu Ramayadi was a figure in hindu mythology and if so I want to know what he is known by in Indian texts. It would appear to be so because I read he also made Krishnas chariot.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pusaka, may I enquire exactly where you read that Ramayadi made Krishna's chariot?

[Pusaka]

Found this and thought it was quite interesting, note it starts with Empu ramayadi

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pusaka, may I enquire exactly where you read that Ramayadi made Krishna's chariot?

I have been searching for the last few days trying to track down if he is a character in Hindu text, one text I came across said he made Krishna's chariot and another text said he made Vishnu's chakram disc...I'm still searching and have not pinned this down yet...but I will