27th October 2015, 11:34 AM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
|
A TORADOR MUSKET FOR A BOY
INDIAN TORADOR MUSKET MADE FOR A BOY AS IT MEASURE ONLY 116 CMS.
ITS DATED 1865 MOST PROBABLY FROM THE MANY ARMOURYS OF RAJASTHAN |
27th October 2015, 02:34 PM | #2 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 803
|
That's a nice little one Bandook.
It doesn't appear to have had much use doies it? How is the bore? Also, can I ask what calibre? Is that a little nib in the middle of the pan? Never seen that before. Apparently short toradors were made for ladies as well, for hunting, but I believe this one as you say made for a boy, as it lacks the usual embellishment of a hunting arm. I like it! Richard. |
27th October 2015, 08:02 PM | #3 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
|
|
28th October 2015, 03:49 AM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
|
The serpentine doesn't looks cut deep enough for a match. With the "nib" in the pan, is it possibly percussion? I know, it would take considerable pressure on the trigger, to fire a cap.
|
28th October 2015, 06:14 AM | #5 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
|
|
28th October 2015, 09:02 AM | #6 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
|
Quote:
|
|
28th October 2015, 09:06 AM | #7 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
|
Quote:
YOUR MUSKET IS SO MUCH LIKE MINE,JUST ONE YEAR APART FROM THE DATES.MUST HAVE RUBBED SHOULDERS AT ONE TIME,CHEERS AND THANKS FOR POSTING |
|
28th October 2015, 12:00 PM | #8 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
Hi Rajesh,
It's a nice one! I don't think that it was made for a boy. As you said probably a carbine. My torador is also very short. I think it depends of the use... Best, Kubur |
28th October 2015, 12:33 PM | #9 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
|
|
28th October 2015, 12:38 PM | #10 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
I think these ones are for another use, they are really short.
They look like guns or blunderbuss. Rajesh's carbine is probably for hunting. |
28th October 2015, 02:21 PM | #11 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 803
|
Are there any written accounts of the use of these short and even shorter matchlocks? I have seen paintings of hunting scenes, but they generally show long or intermediate arms.
Regarding dates; It is possible that the dates are when they were "inventoried" in an arsenal, rather than when they were made. On Indian arms, this sometimes happened more than once. Richard. |
29th October 2015, 03:49 PM | #12 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
As for the short versions being mentioned in written accounts, there are a few mentions in general of "tamancha torador" but the only reference to their purpose I know of is by Georeg Stone who said that they were "probably mainly for show". I think they would have been a good household defense weapon, the ones pictured just do not look like show pieces unless Stone meant they were more for intimidation. |
|
30th October 2015, 10:18 AM | #13 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
|
Quote:
|
|
30th October 2015, 10:19 AM | #14 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
|
Quote:
THATS A BEAUTIFUL ARRAY OF TAMANCHAS ,COPIED THAT FOR MY E-LIBRARY REGARDS RAJESH |
|
30th October 2015, 11:18 AM | #15 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
Hi Rajesh,
Mine has a lot of tigers on the barrel. Let's dream that it was to hunt tigers... Best, Kubur |
30th October 2015, 11:42 AM | #16 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
|
Quote:
|
|
30th October 2015, 05:02 PM | #17 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
|
Without any knowledge about shooting weapons I had to read about them, and here is what I found.
Robert Elgood: Firearms of the Islamic World in the Tareq Rajab Museum, Kuwait, 1995. On page 130 Elgood quotes Oppert, who again quotes Sukraniti - Elgood writes that it is doubtful how genuine Sukraniti realy is. " two kinds of firearms are dscribed in the Sukraniti, one is of small size and the other is of large size. The former is five spans long [a span is about 22 cm]..." There are, of course, a lot of other interesting things to read, like on Sind where note 79 is of special interest, as it tells about a visit by Arnold von Haff in 1497, where he gives a description of the armoury, where he gives its size to thirty feed wide and quite a hundred feet long which is full of arms, like 3-4000 swords, daggers, chain mails, helmets, shields, long pikes and many cross bows hanging under the roof in six rows. The description is too long for me to quote, but I think you get the general idea, that the armoury was quite big, and contained a lot of weapons. It is also mentioned that these short guns were likely made for a boy or a woman. |
30th October 2015, 05:26 PM | #18 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
|
Hi Bandook.
That's a nice carbine length Torador. Good find. Estcrh: YES! Thanks for the pics of these really short ones. I'll add this to my library. As mentioned above, the 1865 is an arsenal rack number. Rick. |
30th October 2015, 07:15 PM | #19 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
From the Pitt Rivers Museum
Quote:
|
|
30th October 2015, 07:28 PM | #20 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Firearms of the Islamic World: In the Tared Rajab Museum, Kuwait By Robert Elgood.
|
30th October 2015, 08:14 PM | #21 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
This paragraph mentions the use of carbine matchlocks (keroolee) in battle.
Historical sketches of the south of India: in an attempt to trace the history of Mysoor; from the origin of the Hindoo government of that state, to the extinction of the Mohammedan dynasty in 1799, Mark Wilks, 1817. . |
30th October 2015, 08:19 PM | #22 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,937
|
Quote:
Thank you for noting this and for so well citing and referencing the source and pages. I also have little knowledge on these firearms, and its great to have these sources so I can pursue more in that context. I always appreciate when contributors add these details. The note as to these indeed produced for boys as suspected is great support. All best regards Jim |
|
30th October 2015, 08:42 PM | #23 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
Quote:
|
|
30th October 2015, 08:44 PM | #24 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
This reference says that pistols (tabancha) and carbines appear to have been rarely used by Mughal cavalry, but what about non cavalry Mughal troops and other Indian cultures.
Mughal Warfare: Indian Frontiers and Highroads to Empire 1500–1700, J.J.L. Gommans, Routledge, 2003. |
31st October 2015, 07:42 AM | #25 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
|
Quote:
|
|
31st October 2015, 12:28 PM | #26 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
|
Quote:
My investigation of the breech of these barrels seems to confirm the mention here of "large powder chambers". It's just amazing they continued to use these matchlocks well into the 19th Century. Thanks again. Rick. |
|
31st October 2015, 03:52 PM | #27 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 803
|
Rick,
In the book "Sahib" (The British soldier in India) There are many instances quoted of the native with his matchlock outshooting the British infantry, both in range and accuracy. This didn't really change until the rifle -musket came along, and even then the Indian torador was still used for sniping at long range. Appears as well, that some excelled at accurate shooting with these from galloping horses... |
|
|