Ottoman/Balkan Grease/Bullet Container

[kahnjar1]

Just bought this little piece. Measures approx. 55mm x 75mm. Made of brass with hinged lid. Can anyone please narrow down the origin, and also if possible please provide a translation of what I assume is Arabic script.
Thanks
Stu

[Kubur]

Hi Stu,

It's Ottoman, but I don't know from where.
Some come from North Africa, some others from the Balkans and also from Turkey. So I prefer to say just: Ottoman... Very very late 19th and beginning of 20th c.

Best,
Kubur

[kahnjar1]

...any further suggestions please and perhaps a translation?
Stu

[rickystl]

Hi Stu.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17586

I posted a similar one two years ago this month and received some great responses. You might want to read.
We know the larger containers with the hinged lids that were fabricated from brass, silver, etc. were used to carry pre-made combustable cartridges, often used with the large Horse pistols.
But these small ones are somewhat of a curiosity. And, as Kuber mentions, many of these small ones are probably not as old as we would like them to be. But every one I've seen are made as a casting. Could be used to carry loose lead balls, grease or pre-greased patchs/patch material, flints, percussion caps, or ? I don't think anyone has been able to confirm their primary use. I wish I knew.
Thanks for posting. Here is mine that I posted two years ago.
Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17586

I posted a similar one two years ago this month and received some great responses. You might want to read.
We know the larger containers with the hinged lids that were fabricated from brass, silver, etc. were used to carry pre-made combustable cartridges, often used with the large Horse pistols.
But these small ones are somewhat of a curiosity. And, as Kuber mentions, many of these small ones are probably not as old as we would like them to be. But every one I've seen are made as a casting. Could be used to carry loose lead balls, grease or pre-greased patchs/patch material, flints, percussion caps, or ? I don't think anyone has been able to confirm their primary use. I wish I knew.
Thanks for posting. Here is mine that I posted two years ago.
Rick.

Hi Rick,
I do not expect that this is that old, but it cost way less than a meal at the local restaurant. I did hope to get some better idea of origin, and if possible a translation of the script. I note that the one you show does not have a hinged lid, so assume that the lid slides on the hanging cords (now missing) ??
As you suggest above, my one looks to be cast but until it arrives I can not be sure.
Stu

[rickystl]

Hi Stu.
Yes, the lid on mine just slides up and down on a cord/strap. I've seen both this style and the hinged style. I like your's better with the hinged lid and Arabic script - which I hope you can get translated. I agree with Kubur that these are probably Ottoman generally. Anyway, your's is a nice one.
Rick.

[Kubur]

Hi Rick,

I realise that I wasn't precise enough.
Here I post mine. I can see two "families" in these grease containers.
The first one with articulated suspensions supports and the later one with rigid supports. The later ones have always their original leather suspension.
It's the reason why they are probably from the end of the 19th c. and most probably from the beginning of the 20th c.
I will post some examples.

Kubur

[Kubur]

Few examples, same style, different shapes, grease containers.

[Kubur]

And now the primer flasks
Same style, same period for me early 20th c.
And yes, they are frequent on epray and very cheap.
On one flask I can read 1930 (Christian calendar), if you remember a recent post, I even said that they could be for early tourists, despite the fact that they look functional as Rick said previously...
And I'm very suspicious about the Arabic script on the late production, probably to attract more customers...
To conclude, we have two families the 19th c. one as the one depicted on the Greek painting in Rick's post and the later one, probably from Istanbul and tourist connected...
Kubur

[rickystl]

Hi Kubur.
I understand what you mean by the "two families". Thanks for the clarification.
It's somewhat hard to believe all the work in these little containers just to hold greese, and the like. But, "decoration" on all their weapons and accessories was commonplace.
My little container looks so plain compared to the others posted here.
Rick.

[stelio]

Hello my friends.
I m not sure for all that is grease container.I think someone used for different work,some is for grease and another for bullet or flintlock stone case. Some of this case is from ottoman empire and balkan area,and some else is from Persian. Some photos from my collection of this little bronze cases. My opinion is all that used from ottoman/balkan warriors in 19th century.
Stelios

[kahnjar1]

There has been a lot of discussion as to what these SMALL containers were used for. The one I recently bought has a dry grey coloured powder residue inside.
I believe that this is flint dust.
1.Not likely to be powder residue due to fact the top does not seal tightly. Also the residue will not burn.
2.Not likely to be from lead balls as that would leave an attached colouration, and not a loose powder, and the balls would need to be VERY small.
3.Not likely grease or greased patches, as it is dry.
A container of this size would hold several flints, even those larger ones for muskets, so perhaps the use for these is solved??
Comments please.
Stu

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

There has been a lot of discussion as to what these SMALL containers were used for. The one I recently bought has a dry grey coloured powder residue inside.
I believe that this is flint dust.
1.Not likely to be powder residue due to fact the top does not seal tightly. Also the residue will not burn.
2.Not likely to be from lead balls as that would leave an attached colouration, and not a loose powder, and the balls would need to be VERY small.
3.Not likely grease or greased patches, as it is dry.
A container of this size would hold several flints, even those larger ones for muskets, so perhaps the use for these is solved??
Comments please.
Stu

Hi Stu.
Well, I tried to view these little containers from a "shooters" perspective, and I come to the same conclusions that you mention above. We know they were not used to hold loose gun powder. And as you say, the loose lead balls would have to be a very small caliber, and it would not hold many. And yes, there would be some coloration evidence. Plus, the soft lead balls would bounce around in the brass container causing deformations (dimples) on the balls. If they were used to carry greese/greesed patching there would be some evidence of old hard greese. But I've never seen one that produced any evidence of greese. As the greese was used up, you would have to poke your finger further and further into the container. And pre-greased patches would stick to each other and be very difficult to retrieve. And the containers are too small for a flint and steel fire starter kit.
Actually, from a shooters perspective, the theory of holding loose percussion caps makes sense. But we know percussion guns in the 19th Century Ottoman Empire were somewhat rare. So I don't believe they were used to hold caps. So my theory of use for pre-knapped gun flints is all I'm left with. But that would make sense.
Of course, as Kuber mentions, many of these are probably not as old as we would initially guess. Being made for the tourist market, etc. So they may have had nothing stored in them. LOL But we do know from a couple of paintings of 19th Century Ottoman warriors that these little containers were in fact used for something. The pre-knapped gun flints is just my best guess based on a shooter's perspective.
Rick.