North+West African ram rods

Tim Simmons · 23rd August 2015, 03:42 PM

I do not have guns. Can any gun collectors give pictures and dimension information on African ram rods, to establish whether this spike weapon could be fitted to a ram rod and serve as a rudimentary bayonet. Thank you.

Kubur · 24th August 2015, 05:05 PM

Hi,
I don't think that is a ramrod, please see the recent posts.
I think that's a Lebel bayonet from 1886 turned into a dagger.
I won't be surprised if this dagger comes from Morocco or Algeria...
Best,
Kubur

Tim Simmons · 24th August 2015, 06:29 PM

I know this is not a ram rod, but could it fit on a ram rod to serve as a rudimentary bayonet. Is a ram rod thin enough to go through what could be the attachment holes?

rickystl · 24th August 2015, 07:50 PM

Hi Tim.
As Kubur mentions, this looks like it started life as a bayonet for an early Lebel rifle. Which, in that case, would have a cleaning rod under the stock versus a ramrod, since this Lebel would be in the later black powder cartridge period versus an early muzzle loader. I don't know how the Lebel bayonet fastened to the rifle.
To convert this bayonet for use on a metal ramrod on a muzzle loading rifle would be very impractial. The weight of the bayonet on the end of the rod would be very heavy, and would likely bend and split the gun stock on the first thrust.
Question: Does the groove on the bottom of the handle look like it was made that way? Or cut out latter ?
Rick.

mrcjgscott · 24th August 2015, 08:14 PM

Hello Tim,

I certainly believe it is based on a Lebel bayonet, but the finish is quite different, and the blade is not fluted.

More likely I think it was made to resemble the Lebel bayonet. (Image attached, courtesy of http://www.bajonet.be )

As to whether it would/could be fitted to a cleaning rod I am unsure, but the caveats listed by Rick are certainly worth bearing in mind, and would make it fairly impractical I think.

Certainly an interesting piece none the less.

Kind regards,

Chris

Tim Simmons · 24th August 2015, 08:17 PM

Somehow the visual information ie my fingers and the attaching holes, is not getting through. Could this fit on tribal guns/flintlocks ram rods?

Pukka Bundook · 27th August 2015, 03:58 PM

Tim,

A ram rod /clearing rod would not be sufficiently strong to support this "bayonet' in use. Said rod would bend/break and be Very difficult to hold if separate from the gun as well.
If attached to gun via the clearing rod, said rod would have to screw in to the stock at the breech end so as not to come loose in use.

I don't see use as a bayonet attached to a ramrod or whatever as being practical.

Been wrong before though!
Richard.

kahnjar1 · 27th August 2015, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Somehow the visual information ie my fingers and the attaching holes, is not getting through. Could this fit on tribal guns/flintlocks ram rods?

Hi Tim,
OK a straight answer to your question. Yes it COULD fit, BUT as Richard says it seems to me to be rather impractical for the reasons already mentioned, and for that matter it could fit ANYTHING of the right diameter. If a tribal person had one of these, IMHO, it would be much more useful to use it as a hand held weapon.
Stu

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th August 2015, 10:09 PM

Or a mine prod...?

Tim Simmons · 28th November 2017, 10:45 AM

This bayonet is no longer mine. If you are a regular you may have noticed it on the swap forum. I was really pleased to receive these photos from the recipient in the swap, showing how the bayonet fitted this long Dane Gun. I am informed that this example of gun is long and that many of the West African made guns where a lot shorter making the bayonet a more practical weapon. It is a little awkward but I think no less useful than a plug bayonet when the time came to using it. Even attached to the ram rod I think you could stick someone with it. I just feel the pictures are worth a viewing and the gun with bayonet is a very cool addition to any gun collection. He did well?

thinreadline · 28th November 2017, 01:07 PM

This is extremely interesting , there is very little precedent for bayonets being used in Africa outside of native troops in Colonial service , but I do agree it does look as though it could have attached to a ramrod or other projection from a musket . Although it looks style on the lebel and perhaps copied in N Africa from French troops bayonets , it seems strange that an actual lebel 'blade' was not used as the region must have been slewing with them ! When I first saw your 'bayonet' I immediately thought this was a piece of trench art from WW1 designed to slot on to something and act as a short flag pole or somesuch.
Very nice , I wish I had spotted it when it was for sale I would have loved to have this !

23rd August 2015, 03:42 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	North+West African ram rods I do not have guns. Can any gun collectors give pictures and dimension information on African ram rods, to establish whether this spike weapon could be fitted to a ram rod and serve as a rudimentary bayonet. Thank you. Attached Images

24th August 2015, 08:14 PM	#5
mrcjgscott Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 189	Hello Tim, I certainly believe it is based on a Lebel bayonet, but the finish is quite different, and the blade is not fluted. More likely I think it was made to resemble the Lebel bayonet. (Image attached, courtesy of http://www.bajonet.be ) As to whether it would/could be fitted to a cleaning rod I am unsure, but the caveats listed by Rick are certainly worth bearing in mind, and would make it fairly impractical I think. Certainly an interesting piece none the less. Kind regards, Chris Attached Images

24th August 2015, 08:17 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Somehow the visual information ie my fingers and the attaching holes, is not getting through. Could this fit on tribal guns/flintlocks ram rods? Attached Images

28th November 2017, 10:45 AM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This bayonet is no longer mine. If you are a regular you may have noticed it on the swap forum. I was really pleased to receive these photos from the recipient in the swap, showing how the bayonet fitted this long Dane Gun. I am informed that this example of gun is long and that many of the West African made guns where a lot shorter making the bayonet a more practical weapon. It is a little awkward but I think no less useful than a plug bayonet when the time came to using it. Even attached to the ram rod I think you could stick someone with it. I just feel the pictures are worth a viewing and the gun with bayonet is a very cool addition to any gun collection. He did well? Attached Images

24th August 2015, 05:05 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, I don't think that is a ramrod, please see the recent posts. I think that's a Lebel bayonet from 1886 turned into a dagger. I won't be surprised if this dagger comes from Morocco or Algeria... Best, Kubur

24th August 2015, 06:29 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I know this is not a ram rod, but could it fit on a ram rod to serve as a rudimentary bayonet. Is a ram rod thin enough to go through what could be the attachment holes?

24th August 2015, 07:50 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Tim. As Kubur mentions, this looks like it started life as a bayonet for an early Lebel rifle. Which, in that case, would have a cleaning rod under the stock versus a ramrod, since this Lebel would be in the later black powder cartridge period versus an early muzzle loader. I don't know how the Lebel bayonet fastened to the rifle. To convert this bayonet for use on a metal ramrod on a muzzle loading rifle would be very impractial. The weight of the bayonet on the end of the rod would be very heavy, and would likely bend and split the gun stock on the first thrust. Question: Does the groove on the bottom of the handle look like it was made that way? Or cut out latter ? Rick.

27th August 2015, 03:58 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Tim, A ram rod /clearing rod would not be sufficiently strong to support this "bayonet' in use. Said rod would bend/break and be Very difficult to hold if separate from the gun as well. If attached to gun via the clearing rod, said rod would have to screw in to the stock at the breech end so as not to come loose in use. I don't see use as a bayonet attached to a ramrod or whatever as being practical. Been wrong before though! Richard.

27th August 2015, 10:09 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Or a mine prod...?

28th November 2017, 01:07 PM	#11
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	This is extremely interesting , there is very little precedent for bayonets being used in Africa outside of native troops in Colonial service , but I do agree it does look as though it could have attached to a ramrod or other projection from a musket . Although it looks style on the lebel and perhaps copied in N Africa from French troops bayonets , it seems strange that an actual lebel 'blade' was not used as the region must have been slewing with them ! When I first saw your 'bayonet' I immediately thought this was a piece of trench art from WW1 designed to slot on to something and act as a short flag pole or somesuch. Very nice , I wish I had spotted it when it was for sale I would have loved to have this !