Recently acquired Kukri.

[David R]

Greetings all, although I already have an old Kukri I have been on the look out for another. Seeing this one for sale on-line at what looked to be a bargain price (Boy have they gone up in price) I have bought it.
I only have the vendors pictures at present, I will take more when it arrives. For me the selling point was the size, 40 cm long in total, 30 cm blade which is larger than most of those made for "those who travel". It was advertised as a 19thC Nepalese piece, and if it is I will be delighted. Comments invited and indeed welcomed.

[sirupate]

Hi David, judging by the butt cap it is 20th Century, and it has the look of circa WW2, possibly military but without provenance we will never know

[mrcjgscott]

Hello David,

Thanks for sharing your new acquisition, I am always pleased to see another person bitten by the kukri bug! You'll find that two is a good number to own, but three is better, and so forth.

I think we can safely rule out the 19th century. Your piece could easily have been made anywhere between the 1930's and the 1950's. Are the bolster and butt plate brass, or steel?

The scabbard certainly points to it being slightly later, but of course there is nothing to say that it is the original to the kukri, they are easily swapped or traded, or replaced: either when it was being used, or by a later dealer/collector.

A nice working kukri, sometimes known in the collecting community as a "villiager" as it is exactly what your average Nepali of the period would have carried during his everyday activities in and around the village.

It certainly shows evidence of sharpening, so this was not bought by somebody to hang on the wall, but rather on somebody's hip.

All in all a nice period piece, well done! (Now you'll have to show us your other kukri...)

[sirupate]

Kukri inspection in 1946, for the Victory Celebrations of WW2 on the 8th June.
The photo (GM in Winchester) shows patterns on the scabbards of their issued kukri. This being only a part the original 'Official Photograph', the kukri and scabbards would have to be 'Official Kit', as they were due to take part in the parades and marches through London.
Not all military scabbards were plain, one has to remember that in WW2
96, 600.00 kukri had to be found/produced and issued for the Gurkhas alone, not including refitting and rebuilt battalions such as the 2/7th and 2/9th Gurkhas.

[David R]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Hello David,


A nice working kukri, sometimes known in the collecting community as a "villiager" as it is exactly what your average Nepali of the period would have carried during his everyday activities in and around the village.

It certainly shows evidence of sharpening, so this was not bought by somebody to hang on the wall, but rather on somebody's hip.

All in all a nice period piece, well done! (Now you'll have to show us your other kukri...)

Well I am happy with what people have said here, my real worry was that it was going to be one of souvenir pieces, a 20th C villager is all I could wish for.
My other Kukri is this one, bought for 30 bob when I was a schoolboy. 48 cm from one extremity to the other, and probably is a 19th C Nepalese Army one.

[sirupate]

Originally Posted by David R

Well I am happy with what people have said here, my real worry was that it was going to be one of souvenir pieces, a 20th C villager is all I could wish for.
My other Kukri is this one, bought for 30 bob when I was a schoolboy. 48 cm from one extremity to the other, and probably is a 19th C Nepalese Army one.

Also I said don't rule out your recent buy being potentially military, we just simply can't say whether or not it is civilian or military.
Your other kukri looks a nice piece, hard to say whether it was civilian or military mind;
Here is a late 19th Century 2/4th GR kukri

[sirupate]

Here is one, potentially from the Lushai Expedition of 1888-1889, from Brigadier Lanton's collection

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by David R

Well I am happy with what people have said here, my real worry was that it was going to be one of souvenir pieces, a 20th C villager is all I could wish for.
My other Kukri is this one, bought for 30 bob when I was a schoolboy. 48 cm from one extremity to the other, and probably is a 19th C Nepalese Army one.

Hello David,

A lovely piece. Certainly no reason why it couldn't be late 19thc and military issue. Certainly of Nepalese manufacture, and the blade is reminiscent of earlier styles, known as hanshee/lambendh, as is the wide kaudi thereon.

Thanks for sharing,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Kukri inspection in 1946, for the Victory Celebrations of WW2 on the 8th June.
The photo (GM in Winchester) shows patterns on the scabbards of their issued kukri. This being only a part the original 'Official Photograph', the kukri and scabbards would have to be 'Official Kit', as they were due to take part in the parades and marches through London.
Not all military scabbards were plain, one has to remember that in WW2
96, 600.00 kukri had to be found/produced and issued for the Gurkhas alone, not including refitting and rebuilt battalions such as the 2/7th and 2/9th Gurkhas.

Hello Simon,

I don't remember declaring that "patterns" or decorations were a no no for military kukri?

It is interesting to note however, that when one views the photograph as a whole, rather than the neatly cropped close up you provide, that only the two NCO's are holding decorated scabbards.

Perhaps senior NCO's were permitted the distinction of a "dress" scabbard whilst on parade? Whether such a scabbard would be sanctioned, or even practical during active service is quite another matter.

Either way, the style and method of decoration used on the NCO's kukri in the photograph is quite different from the one on David's kukri, which is more commonly found on the cheaper, post WW2 tourist "lionshead" variety. (Image attached)

As I said previously, scabbards are easily interchanged over a period of time, so it is best not to read too much into it.

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

Hi Chris, you haven't taken into account the reflection which even on your bottom picture of the kukri inspection (first Havildar on the left) almost blurs out the pattern, with the third Gurkha (left-right)even with the reflection you can still just about see some pattern marks, and who knows out of the 96,000 + kukri issued to the Gurkhas alone (notwithstanding other regiments entitled to kukri, replacement of kukri lost/broken and battalions having to be reformed) what was on what scabbard? All the best Simon

[sirupate]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Hello David,

A lovely piece. Certainly no reason why it couldn't be late 19thc and military issue. Certainly of Nepalese manufacture, and the blade is reminiscent of earlier styles, known as hanshee/lambendh, as is the wide kaudi thereon.

Thanks for sharing,

Chris

Hi Chris, I don't think one can be certain it was of Nepalese manufacture, especially if it was military.
Of course the Hanshee/Lambendh labels are not Nepalese but Westerners trying to label certain types of kukri, Hanshee by John Powell and Lambendh by Jonathan Sedwell.
As you say Chris reminiscent of earlier types, although the 'Hanshee' name was given to quite a distinctive type, all the best Simon
Hanshee and other 18th Century Kukri, from the National Museum in Kathmandu in Nepal;

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Hi Chris, you haven't taken into account the reflection which even on your bottom picture of the kukri inspection (first Havildar on the left) almost blurs out the pattern, with the third Gurkha (left-right)even with the reflection you can still just about see some pattern marks, and who knows out of the 96,000 + kukri issued to the Gurkhas alone (notwithstanding other regiments entitled to kukri, replacement of kukri lost/broken and battalions having to be reformed) what was on what scabbard? All the best Simon

Hello Simon,

Perhaps if you follow this link to a supersize version of the same image, things may become a little clearer for you:

http://www.ikrhs.com/forums/download/file.php?id=4508

Looking at the decoration on the scabbard held by the 2nd NCO from the left, once can see the decoration extends over two thirds of the way down the scabbard. Even taking into account the reflection, it is quite clear that the other two are not decorated in the same fashion.

If you wish to further discuss which kukri were carried by whom and when, I suggest you start a new thread, so that we do not detract from David's original post.

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

As I said reflection, and Jonathan and I must have the same picture from the GM Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

As I said reflection, and Jonathan and I must have the same picture from the GM Chris

It is quite clearly not a reflection Simon, one only has to study the enlarged image to see that.

My own copy of this image came courtesy of the Imperial War Museum, Lambeth.

Originally Posted by sirupate

Hi Chris, I don't think one can be certain it was of Nepalese manufacture, especially if it was military.
Of course the Hanshee/Lambendh labels are not Nepalese but Westerners trying to label certain types of kukri, Hanshee by John Powell and Lambendh by Jonathan Sedwell.
As you say Chris reminiscent of earlier types, although the 'Hanshee' name was given to quite a distinctive type, all the best Simon
Hanshee and other 18th Century Kukri, from the National Museum in Kathmandu in Nepal;

I think one can be as certain as one can be that the kukri is Nepalese in origin, rather than Indian. What makes you think it isn't?

In regards to the typology of kukri that is rather a broad subject, again, probably best discussed elsewhere, so as not to clutter up this thread.

However, as no real terms exist in Nepal to distinguish between kukri types, in order to separate various design features and further our knowledge, such "labels" must be employed.

I believe it was Bill Martino who introduced the term "Hanshee", which was a corruption of the word "hansiya", a term used for a sickle like tool. It may be wrong, but it is still a term known and used by collectors, and as such, who am I to change it?

As "lambendh" literally translates as "long handle" it certainly makes the most sense. Different people use different terms, and in absence of any labels from the country of origin, we westerners with an interest in such things must do the best we can.

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

I think one can be as certain as one can be that the kukri is Nepalese in origin, rather than Indian. What makes you think it isn't?

In regards to the typology of kukri that is rather a broad subject, again, probably best discussed elsewhere, so as not to clutter up this thread.

However, as no real terms exist in Nepal to distinguish between kukri types, in order to separate various design features and further our knowledge, such "labels" must be employed.

I believe it was Bill Martino who introduced the term "Hanshee", which was a corruption of the word "hansiya", a term used for a sickle like tool. It may be wrong, but it is still a term known and used by collectors, and as such, who am I to change it?

As "lambendh" literally translates as "long handle" it certainly makes the most sense. Different people use different terms, and in absence of any labels from the country of origin, we westerners with an interest in such things must do the best we can.

Kind regards,

Chris

Hi Chris,
Then the GM and the IWM must have the same picture, and we will have to agree to disagree, Gurkhas were not allowed to personalise issued kukri btw.
I don't think you can be certain at all, unless there is provenance with the kukri to say it was made in Nepal.
I believe you are right about Bill Martino coming up with the term Hanshee and JP adopting the term from Bill Martino.
Personally I see no need to label kukri, which the Nepalese don't have a name for, but each to their own.
All the best Simon

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Hi Chris,
Then the GM and the IWM must have the same picture, and we will have to agree to disagree,

We certainly will, I am sure everybody here can make their own minds up.

Originally Posted by sirupate

Gurkhas were not allowed to personalise issued kukri btw.

Again, I don't remember suggesting they were, but without examining those 96,000 kukri you mentioned, I doubt you would be able to prove that.

Originally Posted by sirupate

I don't think you can be certain at all, unless there is provenance with the kukri to say it was made in Nepal.

Well, one can be as certain as one can be, in regards to style, form, construction and the experience of handling several hundred.

Like everybody else, I have been known to be wrong in the past, and am happy to be proved so, if it means we all come out learning a little more because of it. But in order for that to happen, somebody would need to say why they believe it is not Nepalese.

Originally Posted by sirupate

Personally I see no need to label kukri, which the Nepalese don't have a name for, but each to their own.

If there were Nepalese terms I would use them, I do where they are available. But where there are none, in order to produce a working lexicon to further our knowledge and discussion, such terms are essential.

Chhuri, chakku, and karda are all Nepali words for knife. Yet Karda is the one we associate with the companion knife housed in the back of the scabbard.

So long as such terms are seen for what they are, there is nothing to fear, and everything to gain.

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

Hi Chris,
Chris; 'Perhaps senior NCO's were permitted the distinction of a "dress" scabbard whilst on parade?'
Me; I think Jonathan originally used the word personalised, but either way personalised or dress scabbards, no, that would not have been allowed in the Gurkhas or in the British army strictly against regs.
The pipers were sometimes bought kothimora kukri by the CO to wear, and Mess orderlies were occasionally also given kothimora kukri to wear, as in the photo of the mess orderlies in the 10th GR in 1948 in Kuala Lumpur, who by the way were rifleman on rotation from rifle companies (obviously the mess cooks, were a different affair).
Chris; Well, one can be as certain as one can be, in regards to style, form, construction and the experience of handling several hundred.
Me; no one can tell from a picture were a kukri was made, unless the picture came with relevant info or markings on the kukri clearly showing where it was made.
All the best Simon

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

I think Jonathan originally used the word personalised, but either way personalised or dress scabbards, no, that would not have been allowed in the Gurkhas or in the British army strictly against regs.

I am not sure what Jonathan has to do with this?

Perhaps you would like to share the regulations you mention here for us to see?

I don't see why a possible regimental tradition in the Third Gurkha Rifles would be so difficult for you to believe?

I find it much harder to believe that such decorated scabbards would be taken on active service. The example on David's kukri is of tourist grade, and would not have lasted a month of field use.

Originally Posted by sirupate

The pipers were sometimes bought kothimora kukri by the CO to wear, and Mess orderlies were occasionally also given kothimora kukri to wear, as in the photo of the mess orderlies in the 10th GR in 1948 in Kuala Lumpur, who by the way were rifleman on rotation from rifle companies (obviously the mess cooks, were a different affair).

I am not really sure what bearing this has on David's kukri?

Originally Posted by sirupate

Me; no one can tell from a picture were a kukri was made, unless the picture came with relevant info or markings on the kukri clearly showing where it was made.

Absolute nonsense. Whilst there is nothing better than holding an object in your hand to evaluate it, a surprising amount can be learned from pictures. One just has to know what to look for and where to look for it.

Infact, this whole forum is based on that very fact!!

As you know, I can tell a (U) J.D. Pensioner and Sons kukri from just a photograph.

[Ian]

There is something about kukris that seems to bring out very heated debate.

Chris and Simon, it is apparent that you have very different ideas; I think you have both expressed them articulately, and neither of you want to concede on certain points. Even a casual reader of these posts will understand what you both strongly believe.

Your cases have been made. Persisting with the present argument will necessitate disciplinary action. Let's move on please.

Ian.

[mrcjgscott]

Hello Ian,

I sometimes allow passion for my subject to eclipse my manners, and I apologise if that is the case here.

Apologies also to David for hijacking your thread, I hope it doesn't put you off finding kukri number three.

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

I do tend to defend my corner about kukri Ian, it is difficult for people to concede when they have opposing views, thank you for your intervention.

[David R]

Well it arrived this afternoon, not the best example of the type but it was cheap as these go. Brass mounts, roughly forged and finished steel blade ( not plated ) with no distal taper but a good wedge section from the back to the edge, slightly hollowed unlike the Lion Head Kukri that used to be a drug on the market.
Not the original scabbard, old though it is. The Kukri fits just about, but it is a little too short for the length of blade. I think I got what I paid for, but I am somewhat disenchanted with this dealer...... the pics never realy give a decent idea of the item.

[sirupate]

That is a shame David, buying from pics can work both ways, sometimes not in one's favour, and sometimes most definitely in one's favour.
If you're able to give us clearer pictures than before that would be great, cheers Simon

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by David R

Well it arrived this afternoon, not the best example of the type but it was cheap as these go. Brass mounts, roughly forged and finished steel blade ( not plated ) with no distal taper but a good wedge section from the back to the edge, slightly hollowed unlike the Lion Head Kukri that used to be a drug on the market.
Not the original scabbard, old though it is. The Kukri fits just about, but it is a little too short for the length of blade. I think I got what I paid for, but I am somewhat disenchanted with this dealer...... the pics never realy give a decent idea of the item.

Hello David,

I am sorry to hear the kukri has not lived up to expectations.

In my experience, the use of brass mounts and the rougher finish would push this to post WW2. Perhaps it was a servicemans bring back? We can never know for sure.

A shame the scabbard is not the original, which was as I feared, but it is not uncommon for these to be swapped or become mismatched over time.

Hopefully with some gentle TLC you can improve the appearance, and enjoy your new piece for what it is.

Happy hunting,

Chris