Syrian silver work.

Gavin Nugent · 17th April 2013, 11:53 AM

I am looking for fine examples of sabre scabbards with Syrian silverwork and embellishments.
Typically when Syrian sabres with silver scabbards are found they are the original Turkish blades and scabbards with Syrian hilts or the poorer quality steel fittings with koftgari style designs to the surfaces.
There are quite a few in the 1991 Riyadh Swords and Armour catalogue but not enough detail seen to show the variation in styles.

Any images would be greatly appreciated.

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 25th April 2013, 11:27 AM

A little nudge to the top.

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 8th August 2015, 02:02 PM

Lofty, this is exactly what we have been discussing...as you can see, the silence was deafening :-)

This might be a good a place as any to continue the conversation.

Gavin

Battara · 9th August 2015, 11:07 PM

Amazing how they did their work in such conditions back then........

Kubur · 10th August 2015, 06:12 AM

Another Post card of the same guy
Kubur

Gavin Nugent · 12th August 2015, 08:13 AM

Syrian silver work on swords seems to be one of the harder ones to pin down with accuracy...it seems that most was lost/sold off during the French Syrian wars of the early 1900s...I guess to support the war...This removal/replacement can be seen within the postcards with metal replacing the larger silver throat and chape whilst a lot of the time the silver suspension was retained so as to not have to replace the leather work.

From what I understand with information from learned French Ottoman collectors, in most ways the silver work resembled that of Ottoman swords with subtle design difference within the silver...and to these more learned collectors, the Algerian Shamshir with provenance that I recently passed on was an eye opener too...the specific silver designs on it were most interesting and apparently unrecorded or previously noted. That particular scabbard clearly showing palm trees and what appears to be a large building...more study needed but time poor like most in today's world...

So it would be nice to see if Syrian engraving and designs can be captured and supported on swords.

Gavin

A.alnakkas · 12th August 2015, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Syrian silver work on swords seems to be one of the harder ones to pin down with accuracy...it seems that most was lost/sold off during the French Syrian wars of the early 1900s...I guess to support the war...This removal/replacement can be seen within the postcards with metal replacing the larger silver throat and chape whilst a lot of the time the silver suspension was retained so as to not have to replace the leather work.

From what I understand with information from learned French Ottoman collectors, in most ways the silver work resembled that of Ottoman swords with subtle design difference within the silver...and to these more learned collectors, the Algerian Shamshir with provenance that I recently passed on was an eye opener too...the specific silver designs on it were most interesting and apparently unrecorded or previously noted. That particular scabbard clearly showing palm trees and what appears to be a large building...more study needed but time poor like most in today's world...

So it would be nice to see if Syrian engraving and designs can be captured and supported on swords.

Gavin

Thats pretty much what I am considering to add to my saif research. From what I managed to gather, Syrian saifs are not necessarily different from Ottoman examples when it comes to decoration. This makes the study very difficult to pinpoint and add to that, some Syrian saifs carry Ottoman stamps.

With Syria being a complete mess, its hard to gather local information and there is always the issue with nationalism where everything is claimed to be Syrian, by contemporary Syrian craftsmen.

Kubur · 13th August 2015, 05:47 AM

Dear Gavin,
I don't understand what do you mean by Syrian sabres?
You mean swords made in Damascus, Syrian or so-called bedouins swords or kilij made in Damascus? I would like to help but I need to know which kind of sword are you looking for...
Best,
Kubur

Gavin Nugent · 13th August 2015, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Gavin,
I don't understand what do you mean by Syrian sabres?
You mean swords made in Damascus, Syrian or so-called bedouins swords or kilij made in Damascus? I would like to help but I need to know which kind of sword are you looking for...
Best,
Kubur

Dear Kubur,

Any of the swords pictured in these images above but disregarding the typically foreign Shashka, Qama and possibly the Yataghan.

Examples that show distinct silverwork be it it the Syrian hilt type known within these pages or the standard Ottoman hilt type, also seen in Bedouins hands, also pictured above.

Gavin

Kubur · 13th August 2015, 10:13 PM

I think you have one here...

Gavin Nugent · 16th August 2015, 02:05 PM

The artist has certainly presented a panoply of weapons, Kastane, Shamshir, Karud, Kaskara, Yataghan, Tulwar, Tabar...impressive...how interesting it would have been to study weapons in the days of these fine artists...thank you for sharing.

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 16th August 2015, 02:16 PM

An Ottoman Pala in Syria, I'd love to know what design elements are in the silver, this is the type of thing I'd like to see in more detail.

Bedouin Chief and Family 1920(?) Syria by Kahlil Sarkees

ALEX · 1st March 2019, 06:14 AM

Not about the antique swords, but the tradition. HERE is the article about current production in Syria, you may see some examples, coftgari and filigree work, some swords/blades are from India with local additions, please note the Persian trade blades, and Golan Druze (Majdal Shams) and Arab jambiyas.

Also (unrelated), notice the link on the same page about unearthed Chinese sword, and included video on making a mechanical damascus sword , etc.

ariel · 1st March 2019, 11:27 PM

The variety of bladed weapons shown by an Orientalist artists most likely stems from their making quick drawings on the spot, but painting the actual oils somewhere in their European ateliers, with multiple swords and daggers available for positioning them conveniently.
Delacroix, Gérôme and Ingres had their ateliers in Paris, Vereshchagin in Munich.
Delacroix painted his famous Massacre in Chios well before he ever visited Greece, Ingres had several Napoleonic oils depicting the latter’s Middle East campaign even though he himself never joined it, Vereshchagin participated in the infamous Kaufman’s conquest of Central Asian khanates, but the paintings were made in Germany. That was where they all kept their stashes of exotic stuff. Indian, Turkish or Persian weapons,- they knew close to nothing about them, and the public knew even less. My favourite example is Rembrandt’s Blinding of Samson, where Philistine soldiers are armed with a Balinese Kris and Ceylonese Pathistanaya:-)

This is why we should view Orientalist images of Oriental weapons as even less documentary true than the later staged photographic images of Indian and especially Afghani campaigns made by British photographers.

Perhaps the only military photographs closest to the reality were the American images of the Civil War. Sure, there were group portraits, but there also were unflattering images of the living conditions, battle scenes, marches and body-strewn battlefields. These were made for newspapers, not for some “ Academy exhibitions”.

17th April 2013, 11:53 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Syrian silver work. I am looking for fine examples of sabre scabbards with Syrian silverwork and embellishments. Typically when Syrian sabres with silver scabbards are found they are the original Turkish blades and scabbards with Syrian hilts or the poorer quality steel fittings with koftgari style designs to the surfaces. There are quite a few in the 1991 Riyadh Swords and Armour catalogue but not enough detail seen to show the variation in styles. Any images would be greatly appreciated. Gavin Attached Images

25th April 2013, 11:27 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	BUMP A little nudge to the top. Gavin

8th August 2015, 02:02 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Lofty, this is exactly what we have been discussing...as you can see, the silence was deafening :-) This might be a good a place as any to continue the conversation. Gavin Attached Images Last edited by SwordsAntiqueWeapons; 8th August 2015 at 02:13 PM.

10th August 2015, 06:12 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another Post card of the same guy Kubur Attached Images

13th August 2015, 10:13 PM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I think you have one here... Attached Images

9th August 2015, 11:07 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Amazing how they did their work in such conditions back then........

12th August 2015, 08:13 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Syrian silver work on swords seems to be one of the harder ones to pin down with accuracy...it seems that most was lost/sold off during the French Syrian wars of the early 1900s...I guess to support the war...This removal/replacement can be seen within the postcards with metal replacing the larger silver throat and chape whilst a lot of the time the silver suspension was retained so as to not have to replace the leather work. From what I understand with information from learned French Ottoman collectors, in most ways the silver work resembled that of Ottoman swords with subtle design difference within the silver...and to these more learned collectors, the Algerian Shamshir with provenance that I recently passed on was an eye opener too...the specific silver designs on it were most interesting and apparently unrecorded or previously noted. That particular scabbard clearly showing palm trees and what appears to be a large building...more study needed but time poor like most in today's world... So it would be nice to see if Syrian engraving and designs can be captured and supported on swords. Gavin

13th August 2015, 05:47 AM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Dear Gavin, I don't understand what do you mean by Syrian sabres? You mean swords made in Damascus, Syrian or so-called bedouins swords or kilij made in Damascus? I would like to help but I need to know which kind of sword are you looking for... Best, Kubur

16th August 2015, 02:05 PM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The artist has certainly presented a panoply of weapons, Kastane, Shamshir, Karud, Kaskara, Yataghan, Tulwar, Tabar...impressive...how interesting it would have been to study weapons in the days of these fine artists...thank you for sharing. Gavin

16th August 2015, 02:16 PM	#12
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	An Ottoman Pala in Syria, I'd love to know what design elements are in the silver, this is the type of thing I'd like to see in more detail. Bedouin Chief and Family 1920(?) Syria by Kahlil Sarkees Attached Images

1st March 2019, 06:14 AM	#13
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Not about the antique swords, but the tradition. HERE is the article about current production in Syria, you may see some examples, coftgari and filigree work, some swords/blades are from India with local additions, please note the Persian trade blades, and Golan Druze (Majdal Shams) and Arab jambiyas. Also (unrelated), notice the link on the same page about unearthed Chinese sword, and included video on making a mechanical damascus sword , etc.

1st March 2019, 11:27 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The variety of bladed weapons shown by an Orientalist artists most likely stems from their making quick drawings on the spot, but painting the actual oils somewhere in their European ateliers, with multiple swords and daggers available for positioning them conveniently. Delacroix, Gérôme and Ingres had their ateliers in Paris, Vereshchagin in Munich. Delacroix painted his famous Massacre in Chios well before he ever visited Greece, Ingres had several Napoleonic oils depicting the latter’s Middle East campaign even though he himself never joined it, Vereshchagin participated in the infamous Kaufman’s conquest of Central Asian khanates, but the paintings were made in Germany. That was where they all kept their stashes of exotic stuff. Indian, Turkish or Persian weapons,- they knew close to nothing about them, and the public knew even less. My favourite example is Rembrandt’s Blinding of Samson, where Philistine soldiers are armed with a Balinese Kris and Ceylonese Pathistanaya:-) This is why we should view Orientalist images of Oriental weapons as even less documentary true than the later staged photographic images of Indian and especially Afghani campaigns made by British photographers. Perhaps the only military photographs closest to the reality were the American images of the Civil War. Sure, there were group portraits, but there also were unflattering images of the living conditions, battle scenes, marches and body-strewn battlefields. These were made for newspapers, not for some “ Academy exhibitions”.