Proposed German Cultural Property Protection Law: likely problem for ethnographic arms and armor collectors

castellum aquilonis · 27th July 2015, 08:08 PM

https://translate.google.de/translat...-text=&act=url

"The stipulations of the amendment of the law on the Protection of Cultural Heritage threaten the collecting of cultural objects by private individuals. This law will effect everybody specialized in traditional collecting fields, such as books, stamps, furniture, ceramics, coins, classic cars and paintings. Retroactively, this new law will impose due diligence guidelines that are impossible to follow even for the most meticulous collector. When it comes to a dispute, the law will require, by reversing the burden of proof, the owner of a “cultural good” with a value of at least 2,500 euros to provide proof as to the item’s provenance for the previous 20 years; this affects “archaeological cultural goods” with a value as low as 100 euros.
This is an unrealistic demand which misrepresents most of the objects that are currently traded on the domestic and the international art market in full accordance with the law as being illegal, and will result in a considerable decline in value of the objects in question.“

Those with an interest in this issue are encouraged to visit the above web site to learn more about it.

https://translate.google.de/translat...-text=&act=url

www.openpetition.de/petition/online/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns

Ian · 28th July 2015, 10:58 PM

Castellum aquilonis:

Thank you for bringing this issue to the attention of forum members and others visiting this site.

Ian.

spiral · 28th July 2015, 11:28 PM

Often with such approaches in the EEC its Germany tomorrow... the rest of Europe next year...

Thanks for the heads up castellum aquilonis!

spiral

Rick · 28th July 2015, 11:48 PM

An outrage .
"Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men
Some will rob you with a six-gun
And some with a fountain pen ."

Woody Guthrie

A. G. Maisey · 28th July 2015, 11:55 PM

If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

castellum aquilonis · 29th July 2015, 12:11 AM

I assume that this is about the total control of personal property, and a few people who had the feeling not having enough attention in their area of politics wanted to get more attention.
Very interesting article above.
I hope they will change or totally drop this insane law.

We have all the laws we need or do not need already.

Most collectors treat their items much better as any museum could do, we also have to remember that.

spiral · 29th July 2015, 12:13 AM

A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork...

He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos...

The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum.

There using that old post as evidence against him...

spiral

trenchwarfare · 29th July 2015, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

Unfortunately, the average citizen (of any country) is like a cartoon character, and will run in front of it, till he trips and falls. Or just lay down, and accept the inevitable.

Ian · 29th July 2015, 02:00 AM

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork...

He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos...

The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum.

There using that old post as evidence against him...

spiral

A. G. Maisey · 29th July 2015, 02:09 AM

Yes Ian, Europe can be very difficult in more ways than, when it comes to sale into Europe of edged weapons.

Rick · 29th July 2015, 02:31 AM

Items of ivory have disappeared from our local auction house's Japanese, Asian and other auctions .
Before this Spring such items were always listed with the notation that they could not be shipped to California .

Tim Simmons · 29th July 2015, 07:17 AM

Could this be rather muddled reaction to the criminal trade in artefacts by a somewhat disturbing group that follow a deranged view of a middle Eastern faith.

spiral · 29th July 2015, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.

Sadly in this case it is ivory. There are testing a horn handled piece to determine its species though.

After all with Cites the law is broken even it is due to ignorance of the law .{No legal paperwork}

I suspect the kukris, {They seized all 4 of them as in the same parcel.} will not be returned.

There all {IMHO} early 20th century. One has a 22ct. gold scabbard fittings. 2 are silver fittings.

spiral

drac2k · 29th July 2015, 04:59 PM

Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?
To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!

Tim Simmons · 1st August 2015, 09:41 AM

The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?

Interesting point of view. However the "Western" judicial vandalism only happens when you export the items. The vandalism is carried out in the attempt to save for the worlds future generations, endangered flora and fauna. I do not think it comperes to the destruction of art to deny the worlds people of their past. I fear this is bit of mission creep from the original topic.

ariel · 1st August 2015, 12:10 PM

Under this law, a work of art looted by the Nazis and residing in German hands ( private or public) can no longer be returned to the legal heirs. Having spent 70+ years on the German soil, it will obviously acquire a mystical aura of a German "cultural object" :-(((

Not long ago a similar logic was used to deny claims of legal heirs against a "collection" of a former Nazi, officially responsible for actual confiscation of art objects from the Jews sent to Auschwitz.

Now it will no longer be a "logical legal argument"; it will be an official German law.

castellum aquilonis · 11th August 2015, 11:31 PM

Interesting article:
http://www.muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566
F. Schlusswort
Den wahren Gesetzeszweck hat Frau Grütters ehrlich geäußert: „in Deutschland den Ankauf des Staates für Antiken und Münzen sowie sonstige Kunstwerke durch Marktbeschränkungen so billig als möglich zu machen.“ Ist dies: „Freiheit statt Sozialismus“?

Closing Remarks
The true purpose of the law Grütters expressed honestly : " To make the purchase of the state for antiquities and coins and other works of art by market restrictions as cheaply as possible in Germany" is this: " Freedom instead of socialism " ?

silberschatzimsee · 12th August 2015, 12:26 AM

yes its purposely done to get their hands onto the "Volkseigentum" (citizen-belongings)

sooner or later also our governemenr will follow.

27th July 2015, 08:08 PM	#1
castellum aquilonis Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 47	Proposed German Cultural Property Protection Law: likely problem for ethnographic arms and armor collectors https://translate.google.de/translat...-text=&act=url "The stipulations of the amendment of the law on the Protection of Cultural Heritage threaten the collecting of cultural objects by private individuals. This law will effect everybody specialized in traditional collecting fields, such as books, stamps, furniture, ceramics, coins, classic cars and paintings. Retroactively, this new law will impose due diligence guidelines that are impossible to follow even for the most meticulous collector. When it comes to a dispute, the law will require, by reversing the burden of proof, the owner of a “cultural good” with a value of at least 2,500 euros to provide proof as to the item’s provenance for the previous 20 years; this affects “archaeological cultural goods” with a value as low as 100 euros. This is an unrealistic demand which misrepresents most of the objects that are currently traded on the domestic and the international art market in full accordance with the law as being illegal, and will result in a considerable decline in value of the objects in question.“ Those with an interest in this issue are encouraged to visit the above web site to learn more about it. https://translate.google.de/translat...-text=&act=url www.openpetition.de/petition/online/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns Last edited by Ian; 28th July 2015 at 10:50 PM.

29th July 2015, 12:11 AM	#6
castellum aquilonis Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 47	Germany I assume that this is about the total control of personal property, and a few people who had the feeling not having enough attention in their area of politics wanted to get more attention. Very interesting article above. I hope they will change or totally drop this insane law. We have all the laws we need or do not need already. Most collectors treat their items much better as any museum could do, we also have to remember that.

29th July 2015, 02:31 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	The Shotgun Approach Items of ivory have disappeared from our local auction house's Japanese, Asian and other auctions . Before this Spring such items were always listed with the notation that they could not be shipped to California .

29th July 2015, 07:17 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The road to hell is paved with good intention. Could this be rather muddled reaction to the criminal trade in artefacts by a somewhat disturbing group that follow a deranged view of a middle Eastern faith.

1st August 2015, 12:10 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Under this law, a work of art looted by the Nazis and residing in German hands ( private or public) can no longer be returned to the legal heirs. Having spent 70+ years on the German soil, it will obviously acquire a mystical aura of a German "cultural object" :-((( Not long ago a similar logic was used to deny claims of legal heirs against a "collection" of a former Nazi, officially responsible for actual confiscation of art objects from the Jews sent to Auschwitz. Now it will no longer be a "logical legal argument"; it will be an official German law. Last edited by ariel; 1st August 2015 at 12:46 PM.

28th July 2015, 10:58 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Castellum aquilonis: Thank you for bringing this issue to the attention of forum members and others visiting this site. Ian.

28th July 2015, 11:28 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Often with such approaches in the EEC its Germany tomorrow... the rest of Europe next year... Thanks for the heads up castellum aquilonis! spiral

28th July 2015, 11:48 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	An outrage . "Yes, as through this world I've wandered I've seen lots of funny men Some will rob you with a six-gun And some with a fountain pen ." Woody Guthrie

28th July 2015, 11:55 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

29th July 2015, 12:13 AM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork... He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos... The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum. There using that old post as evidence against him... spiral

29th July 2015, 02:09 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	Yes Ian, Europe can be very difficult in more ways than, when it comes to sale into Europe of edged weapons.

29th July 2015, 04:59 PM	#14
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ? To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!

1st August 2015, 09:41 AM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ? Interesting point of view. However the "Western" judicial vandalism only happens when you export the items. The vandalism is carried out in the attempt to save for the worlds future generations, endangered flora and fauna. I do not think it comperes to the destruction of art to deny the worlds people of their past. I fear this is bit of mission creep from the original topic.

11th August 2015, 11:31 PM	#17
castellum aquilonis Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 47	.... Interesting article: http://www.muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566 F. Schlusswort Den wahren Gesetzeszweck hat Frau Grütters ehrlich geäußert: „in Deutschland den Ankauf des Staates für Antiken und Münzen sowie sonstige Kunstwerke durch Marktbeschränkungen so billig als möglich zu machen.“ Ist dies: „Freiheit statt Sozialismus“? Closing Remarks The true purpose of the law Grütters expressed honestly : " To make the purchase of the state for antiquities and coins and other works of art by market restrictions as cheaply as possible in Germany" is this: " Freedom instead of socialism " ?

12th August 2015, 12:26 AM	#18
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	yes its purposely done to get their hands onto the "Volkseigentum" (citizen-belongings) sooner or later also our governemenr will follow.