help please ! I'm being offered to buy a rapier...

Rivkin · 9th January 2005, 08:08 AM

Rather two of them. Both spanish.

I did not get all the pictures yet, but these are the ones I've got (and they are bad).

Hilt from one, and hilt and blade from the other.

The problem is that the things are being sold as XVIII century stuff - and look quite authentic to me.

Am I right or am I really dumb ?

Marc · 9th January 2005, 06:53 PM

Rivkin:

The first one (green background) is indeed a 18th century Spanish sword, but not a rapier. It's an exemplar of the so called "Pattern 1796" sword for Spanish Cavalry, and it would be better called a broadsword. The one in the picture is genuine, but I don't know if it is the one you're going to get.
Now, the second one (red background). It's always hard to judge from a picture... but it looks fishy to me. The grip seems a replacement, and the guard... well, to me, it looks like an attempt to turn part of an 18th c. Spanish military broadsword guard into something rapier-esque by adding some additional bars. The blade looks also out of place. My impression is that it's a composite, with some elements added with the intention of making it look as a rapier.
Online identifications are always delicate, but in this case I would proceed with certain caution. Just my opinion, of course.

Marc

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2005, 07:32 PM

Rivkin,
I agree entirely with Marc on these, and I think these likely would be placed in colonial New Spain. This has long been one of my favorite weapons subjects and always intriguing because Spanish colonial regions had such hybridization and perpetual use of venerable forms of weaponry. The Spaniards were deeply set in maintaining traditional weapons, and many early weapons saw use well into the 19th century, whether as heirloom examples or entirely refurbished and often composite.

As Marc has pointed out, the top example with cup guard is similar to the
model 1796 cavalry troopers sword ("Armamento Portatil Espanol 1764-1939" , B.Rubi, Madrid 1976, p.27, #4). The only difference is the straight quillon bar, the standard example has upward turned quillon on one end and the other is branched downward. The straight crossbar seems characteristic of other swords found in Spanish colonial regions, as are the simply scribed terminals of the quillons. The stamps on the forte of the blade also seem consistant with some other examples I have seen. The sword in your picture does seem possibly cleaned and remounted as most of these are found highly patinated. The wire wrap and four bar grip is consistant with many earlier Spanish swords of 18th century including rapiers and 'bilbos'.

The second sword, again as Marc has pointed out, seems clearly composite, especially with the extremely narrow rapier blade of 17th century form. The flattened form pommel is found on 18th century Spanish rapiers, and the crossguard has the downward turned escutcheon of shield shape seen on developed hilt Spanish rapiers of 16th-17th c. While the sword is composite, the components may have been together for some time and possibly professionally restored with new grip wrap. It is important to note that colonial armourers often fashioned and refurbished components from varied earlier weapons to provide Spanish officers with traditional forms desired.
These early form rapier blades were shipped to the colonies well into the 18th c. to be used in swords in the colonies long after these blades had gone out of fashion in Europe. I have seen examples of these thin blades found in bundles in 18th century Spanish shipwrecks off the coast of the Americas.
Again, the quillon terminals seem very Spanish as well. The bars of the hilt seem crudely fashioned and somewhat consistant with blacksmith quality interpretation.

Again, agreeing with Marc, while these seem likely colonial examples...caveat emptor! Be sure to establish clear terms with the seller if return is necessary. From the pictures they look pretty good...I'm jealous!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 9th January 2005, 08:37 PM

Be very, very, very careful!
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ighlight=green

Jeff

Rivkin · 9th January 2005, 08:53 PM

Thank you so much, yeap the second one is the guy (fake), who seems to still trying to rip off the people.

Thank you very, very much.

Can I ask another newbie question ? Is there a really good book on western european arms (solingen/toledo), XIII-XVIII century or so ?

I have couple of books but they all like "here is a sword of great king ..., especially important are these diamonds and the golden scabbard, but the sword itself is dull". I would really love to read more about what kind of tricks did they use and real combat weapons.

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

Rivkin · 10th January 2005, 12:48 AM

WARNING !

I have some information that suggests that both of these sellers may be not what they present themselves to be. If you've been offered one of these rapiers, be careful.

Rather · 10th January 2005, 04:53 PM

Hi Rivkin,

I recommend following books. They mainly refer to European weapons, but there are also a few examples of blades from other regions of the world in the first one, it is about the collection of the German blade museum in Solingen. I do not know, if there is an English version available, most probably they are out of print. I suggest to contact a University nearby, the should be able to arrange interlending, if they don’t have them in their library.

Title: Kostbare Blankwaffen aus dem Deutschen Klingenmuseum Solingen Author: Heinz Robert Uhlemann
Publisher: Düsseldorf : Rheinland-Verl., 1968

Title: Blankwaffen, Vol. 2, Vom 16. bis 19. Jahrhundert
Author: Heribert Seitz
Publisher: Braunschweig : Klinkhardt & Biermann, 1965

Title: Blankwaffen : ein waffenhistorisches Handbuch ; Geschichte und Typenentwicklung im europäischen Kulturbereich / Heribert Seitz
Author: Heribert Seitz
Publisher: Braunschweig : Klinkhardt & Biermann, 1965

9th January 2005, 08:08 AM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	help please ! I'm being offered to buy a rapier... Rather two of them. Both spanish. I did not get all the pictures yet, but these are the ones I've got (and they are bad). Hilt from one, and hilt and blade from the other. The problem is that the things are being sold as XVIII century stuff - and look quite authentic to me. Am I right or am I really dumb ? Attached Images

9th January 2005, 06:53 PM	#2
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Rivkin: The first one (green background) is indeed a 18th century Spanish sword, but not a rapier. It's an exemplar of the so called "Pattern 1796" sword for Spanish Cavalry, and it would be better called a broadsword. The one in the picture is genuine, but I don't know if it is the one you're going to get. Now, the second one (red background). It's always hard to judge from a picture... but it looks fishy to me. The grip seems a replacement, and the guard... well, to me, it looks like an attempt to turn part of an 18th c. Spanish military broadsword guard into something rapier-esque by adding some additional bars. The blade looks also out of place. My impression is that it's a composite, with some elements added with the intention of making it look as a rapier. Online identifications are always delicate, but in this case I would proceed with certain caution. Just my opinion, of course. Marc

9th January 2005, 07:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,953	Rivkin, I agree entirely with Marc on these, and I think these likely would be placed in colonial New Spain. This has long been one of my favorite weapons subjects and always intriguing because Spanish colonial regions had such hybridization and perpetual use of venerable forms of weaponry. The Spaniards were deeply set in maintaining traditional weapons, and many early weapons saw use well into the 19th century, whether as heirloom examples or entirely refurbished and often composite. As Marc has pointed out, the top example with cup guard is similar to the model 1796 cavalry troopers sword ("Armamento Portatil Espanol 1764-1939" , B.Rubi, Madrid 1976, p.27, #4). The only difference is the straight quillon bar, the standard example has upward turned quillon on one end and the other is branched downward. The straight crossbar seems characteristic of other swords found in Spanish colonial regions, as are the simply scribed terminals of the quillons. The stamps on the forte of the blade also seem consistant with some other examples I have seen. The sword in your picture does seem possibly cleaned and remounted as most of these are found highly patinated. The wire wrap and four bar grip is consistant with many earlier Spanish swords of 18th century including rapiers and 'bilbos'. The second sword, again as Marc has pointed out, seems clearly composite, especially with the extremely narrow rapier blade of 17th century form. The flattened form pommel is found on 18th century Spanish rapiers, and the crossguard has the downward turned escutcheon of shield shape seen on developed hilt Spanish rapiers of 16th-17th c. While the sword is composite, the components may have been together for some time and possibly professionally restored with new grip wrap. It is important to note that colonial armourers often fashioned and refurbished components from varied earlier weapons to provide Spanish officers with traditional forms desired. These early form rapier blades were shipped to the colonies well into the 18th c. to be used in swords in the colonies long after these blades had gone out of fashion in Europe. I have seen examples of these thin blades found in bundles in 18th century Spanish shipwrecks off the coast of the Americas. Again, the quillon terminals seem very Spanish as well. The bars of the hilt seem crudely fashioned and somewhat consistant with blacksmith quality interpretation. Again, agreeing with Marc, while these seem likely colonial examples...caveat emptor! Be sure to establish clear terms with the seller if return is necessary. From the pictures they look pretty good...I'm jealous!!!! All the best, Jim

9th January 2005, 08:37 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Be very, very, very careful! http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ighlight=green Jeff

9th January 2005, 08:53 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you so much, yeap the second one is the guy (fake), who seems to still trying to rip off the people. Thank you very, very much. Can I ask another newbie question ? Is there a really good book on western european arms (solingen/toledo), XIII-XVIII century or so ? I have couple of books but they all like "here is a sword of great king ..., especially important are these diamonds and the golden scabbard, but the sword itself is dull". I would really love to read more about what kind of tricks did they use and real combat weapons. Sincerely yours, K.Rivkin

10th January 2005, 12:48 AM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	WARNING ! I have some information that suggests that both of these sellers may be not what they present themselves to be. If you've been offered one of these rapiers, be careful.

10th January 2005, 04:53 PM	#7
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Hi Rivkin, I recommend following books. They mainly refer to European weapons, but there are also a few examples of blades from other regions of the world in the first one, it is about the collection of the German blade museum in Solingen. I do not know, if there is an English version available, most probably they are out of print. I suggest to contact a University nearby, the should be able to arrange interlending, if they don’t have them in their library. Title: Kostbare Blankwaffen aus dem Deutschen Klingenmuseum Solingen Author: Heinz Robert Uhlemann Publisher: Düsseldorf : Rheinland-Verl., 1968 Title: Blankwaffen, Vol. 2, Vom 16. bis 19. Jahrhundert Author: Heribert Seitz Publisher: Braunschweig : Klinkhardt & Biermann, 1965 Title: Blankwaffen : ein waffenhistorisches Handbuch ; Geschichte und Typenentwicklung im europäischen Kulturbereich / Heribert Seitz Author: Heribert Seitz Publisher: Braunschweig : Klinkhardt & Biermann, 1965