Blunderbuss ID Needed

trenchwarfare · 22nd April 2015, 05:30 PM

Picked up this blunderbuss last weekend. My gut tells me it's European, probably Spanish, but... Youse guys are pretty savvy on these things so thought I'd try here. Condition is unbelievably awesome! The only markings are the unit? and rack? numbers. Barrel is 9 1/4" long, with an overall length of 22 1/2". Guess that would put it in the "Knee Pistol" category. Muzzle is 1 1/2" across, with a bore of about 54/58 caliber. Weighs in at about six pounds. Any ideas?

kahnjar1 · 22nd April 2015, 07:59 PM

If European it would likely have proof marks. Unusual IMHO to see a belt hook on a blunderbuss. Also stamp looks very crude.
Not my particular field but looks very "new" to me with sharp edges on the upper barrel. If this was old I would expect to see some wear.....
Stu

trenchwarfare · 23rd April 2015, 02:05 AM

Up until around 1900, Spanish guns are seldom proof marked. I think it is navy, and the markings were done aboard ship. That would account for the crudeness. As to condition, I don't think it was ever used. It looks unfired.

Oliver Pinchot · 23rd April 2015, 06:55 PM

This is Indian work of the latter 19th century. The mark on the barrel indicates it came out of the Jaipur arsenal. The lock and several other parts are probably from an English sporting gun, while the remainder is locally made. Its condition suggests it saw relatively little use before being placed in the arsenal.

trenchwarfare · 23rd April 2015, 07:18 PM

Thanks Oliver. Now, I have a starting point. I figured it was late 19th, possibly even very early 20th century. The age of the blunderbuss was pretty much over, when percussion ignition came into use. But, in backwater areas, old traditions die hard.

Oliver Pinchot · 23rd April 2015, 07:33 PM

That notion may hold true for Western Europe, but everywhere from the Balkans to Xinjiang, and probably farther, not only blunderbusses but flintlock and even matchlock mechanisms remained in use well into the 20th century.

trenchwarfare · 26th April 2015, 05:10 AM

I totally agree, Oliver. Even here in the US, "Poor Boy" percussion mountain rifles were still in use, well into the 20th century.

Shakethetrees · 26th April 2015, 07:07 AM

Everything is too crisp, too clean for it to have any age. The alpha-numerical font type also does not stand up to scrutiny. It is a simple, post WWII style of lettering. The finish on the stock is without any sign of handling, no patina.

If you look at the muzzle, the way it was machined with a very steep angle toward the bore screams late, IMHO. Older barrels were forged with a consistent, gradual wall thickness.

I suspect it was made in the 20 th century possibly for the African trade using a few old parts and new stock and barrel.

My copy is not available, but the old Shooter's bible always had listings for these modern weapons made for trade to the Belgian Congo and the like.

It's a pretty good looking gun (except for the back-action lock, which I am extremely prejudiced against, for personal, visual reasons), but, has no real age.

rickystl · 27th April 2015, 05:57 PM

I think this gun might be included in the catagory "forever a mystery". Lol.

I think some individual built this gun from some surplus parts sometime in the 20th Century. From the photos the Inletting of the metal to wood parts looks very good. Not semi-mass production. And the contour of the forearm of the stock to the muzzle. This was built by someone that knew what they were doing. The ramrod looks like it was turned from bar stock. Not a forgeing. The butt plate, trigger guard, trigger, and back action lock look typical of late English/European/American percussion fowlers. The barrel, with it's late style stampings is the big mystery. If the breech were inspected, it would not surprise me if the barrel was in firing condition.
While not a big fan of back-action locks, I like this gun. Whoever assembled it did a good job. Rick.

KerisBarung · 1st May 2015, 04:46 PM

it is from the Jaipur arsenal india . i have some guns from there they sold off 1000's in the late 1980's i think?

trenchwarfare · 1st May 2015, 07:07 PM

Thanks for the info K-B, and welcome aboard. You are the second to make that statement. Other comments seem to indicate it is an assemblage of unrelated parts, and not very old. Well, the fit and finish show that it was purposely made, by skilled hands. And, 100+ years, is pretty old to me. Just cuz something looks new, doesn't mean that it is. And versa visa.

I would love to see some of your Jaipur guns. Especially the markings.

rickystl · 3rd May 2015, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Thanks for the info K-B, and welcome aboard. You are the second to make that statement. Other comments seem to indicate it is an assemblage of unrelated parts, and not very old. Well, the fit and finish show that it was purposely made, by skilled hands. And, 100+ years, is pretty old to me. Just cuz something looks new, doesn't mean that it is. And versa visa.

I would love to see some of your Jaipur guns. Especially the markings.

I SECOND THAT REQUEST!! Rick.

trenchwarfare · 18th June 2015, 04:44 AM

Am resurrecting this thread, as new info has come to light. I found these images of a barrel for a matchlock, rampart/wall gun. It clearly has markings identical to the ones on my blunderbuss. This barrel is apparently very old. My theory is, the weapons stored in the Jaipur Arsenal, were inventoried, cataloged, and marked, before disposition. This was done, well into the 20th century. That would explain the modern fonts used.

Richard G · 19th June 2015, 11:58 PM

I attach a post relating to these marks I made in a thread concerning a torador a few years ago. Still seems relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Hello.
I have always understood the the large stamped marks in english are Indian goverment export marks. At one time I think a year of export was decipherable but it is difficult to find anything sensible here. I think the main point is that the mark does not necessarilly signify the gun is from the Jaipur armoury but that it was approved for export in Jaipur, (at the armoury?) The purpose was to stop significant and important items being exported. Ironically, I understand, Indian gun laws are so tight that even items such as these cannot be owned privately without a license and hence remain stored in armouries, unless exported.
Might just be collector's gossip tho'.
Regards
Richard

22nd April 2015, 05:30 PM	#1
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Blunderbuss ID Needed Picked up this blunderbuss last weekend. My gut tells me it's European, probably Spanish, but... Youse guys are pretty savvy on these things so thought I'd try here. Condition is unbelievably awesome! The only markings are the unit? and rack? numbers. Barrel is 9 1/4" long, with an overall length of 22 1/2". Guess that would put it in the "Knee Pistol" category. Muzzle is 1 1/2" across, with a bore of about 54/58 caliber. Weighs in at about six pounds. Any ideas? Attached Images

18th June 2015, 04:44 AM	#13
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Am resurrecting this thread, as new info has come to light. I found these images of a barrel for a matchlock, rampart/wall gun. It clearly has markings identical to the ones on my blunderbuss. This barrel is apparently very old. My theory is, the weapons stored in the Jaipur Arsenal, were inventoried, cataloged, and marked, before disposition. This was done, well into the 20th century. That would explain the modern fonts used. Attached Images

22nd April 2015, 07:59 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	If European it would likely have proof marks. Unusual IMHO to see a belt hook on a blunderbuss. Also stamp looks very crude. Not my particular field but looks very "new" to me with sharp edges on the upper barrel. If this was old I would expect to see some wear..... Stu

23rd April 2015, 02:05 AM	#3
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Up until around 1900, Spanish guns are seldom proof marked. I think it is navy, and the markings were done aboard ship. That would account for the crudeness. As to condition, I don't think it was ever used. It looks unfired.

23rd April 2015, 06:55 PM	#4
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	This is Indian work of the latter 19th century. The mark on the barrel indicates it came out of the Jaipur arsenal. The lock and several other parts are probably from an English sporting gun, while the remainder is locally made. Its condition suggests it saw relatively little use before being placed in the arsenal.

23rd April 2015, 07:18 PM	#5
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Thanks Oliver. Now, I have a starting point. I figured it was late 19th, possibly even very early 20th century. The age of the blunderbuss was pretty much over, when percussion ignition came into use. But, in backwater areas, old traditions die hard.

23rd April 2015, 07:33 PM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	That notion may hold true for Western Europe, but everywhere from the Balkans to Xinjiang, and probably farther, not only blunderbusses but flintlock and even matchlock mechanisms remained in use well into the 20th century.

26th April 2015, 05:10 AM	#7
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I totally agree, Oliver. Even here in the US, "Poor Boy" percussion mountain rifles were still in use, well into the 20th century.

26th April 2015, 07:07 AM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Everything is too crisp, too clean for it to have any age. The alpha-numerical font type also does not stand up to scrutiny. It is a simple, post WWII style of lettering. The finish on the stock is without any sign of handling, no patina. If you look at the muzzle, the way it was machined with a very steep angle toward the bore screams late, IMHO. Older barrels were forged with a consistent, gradual wall thickness. I suspect it was made in the 20 th century possibly for the African trade using a few old parts and new stock and barrel. My copy is not available, but the old Shooter's bible always had listings for these modern weapons made for trade to the Belgian Congo and the like. It's a pretty good looking gun (except for the back-action lock, which I am extremely prejudiced against, for personal, visual reasons), but, has no real age.

27th April 2015, 05:57 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	I think this gun might be included in the catagory "forever a mystery". Lol. I think some individual built this gun from some surplus parts sometime in the 20th Century. From the photos the Inletting of the metal to wood parts looks very good. Not semi-mass production. And the contour of the forearm of the stock to the muzzle. This was built by someone that knew what they were doing. The ramrod looks like it was turned from bar stock. Not a forgeing. The butt plate, trigger guard, trigger, and back action lock look typical of late English/European/American percussion fowlers. The barrel, with it's late style stampings is the big mystery. If the breech were inspected, it would not surprise me if the barrel was in firing condition. While not a big fan of back-action locks, I like this gun. Whoever assembled it did a good job. Rick.

1st May 2015, 04:46 PM	#10
KerisBarung Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: UK Posts: 1	it is from the Jaipur arsenal india . i have some guns from there they sold off 1000's in the late 1980's i think?

1st May 2015, 07:07 PM	#11
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Thanks for the info K-B, and welcome aboard. You are the second to make that statement. Other comments seem to indicate it is an assemblage of unrelated parts, and not very old. Well, the fit and finish show that it was purposely made, by skilled hands. And, 100+ years, is pretty old to me. Just cuz something looks new, doesn't mean that it is. And versa visa. I would love to see some of your Jaipur guns. Especially the markings.