Firangi for comment

Cerjak · 21st February 2015, 10:17 AM

This firangi is with a single edge long blade.
This blade is very flexible
Overall length: 121 cm the blade 100 cm
How old could be this sword ?

Cerjak · 21st February 2015, 11:08 AM

I forgot to mention that the blade is single edge but 2 edges the last 25 cm

Cerjak · 18th March 2015, 09:05 AM

a nice old picture from 1865

Iain · 22nd March 2015, 02:40 PM

Any markings on the blade?

Cerjak · 22nd March 2015, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Any markings on the blade?

Hi Iain

Infortunatly there isn"t any marks on the blade.

Best
Cerjak

Iain · 22nd March 2015, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hi Iain

Infortunatly there isn"t any marks on the blade.

Best
Cerjak

Ok, as you probably know a great number of blades found in this style of mount are trade blades from the 18th century and some from the 17th. At a guess this one would fall into the 18th century category. But I would hope the resident Indian weaponry collectors could give you more information.

Cerjak · 22nd March 2015, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Ok, as you probably know a great number of blades found in this style of mount are trade blades from the 18th century and some from the 17th. At a guess this one would fall into the 18th century category. But I would hope the resident Indian weaponry collectors could give you more information.

YES IAIN,

I think it is correct to date this blade around the 18 th century .
best
Cerjak

ariel · 23rd March 2015, 12:40 PM

From the limited photos, this blade does not look European to me. Likely, locally-made Sukhela or Dhup. 18th century is possible, but the first half of the 19th is also probable: 200 years old, give or take. In any case, it is older than my mother-in-law.

Timo Nieminen · 28th March 2015, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

From the limited photos, this blade does not look European to me. Likely, locally-made Sukhela or Dhup.

What are the signs that tell you this?

To me, it looks normal for a German-made blade, 17th/18th century. True, these tend to be marked, but often enough at the base of the blade where it might be covered (or might have been polished off). What does one look for to distinguish trade blades from local blades?

Jens Nordlunde · 9th February 2016, 04:09 PM

Interesting question Timo, and you should have had more attention when you asked it - sorry.

Sometimes the Indian copies of an European blade is so close that you cant be sure, it could be either European or Indian made. At other times it is a bit easier to see, like the way the fullers are made - not quite like the ones on European blades, or if the blades are stamped, the way the stamps have been made. A ricasso could mean an Indian made blade, but although the Europeans made a lot of blades for export to India, these will mostly be Indian blades, but not always.

Sometimes it is quite easy to say, but not always - especially not on photos.

iskender · 9th February 2016, 06:58 PM

to be or not to be is the question! as firangi in my understanding means outlander , every type of indian weapon with a foreign blade will be addressed as "firangi" . mostly (many) indian blades are arbitrated and polished ,you will never see the wootz-structure or a lamination visible! but for sure , a european export-blade will never be forged from wootz. what can give a hint on a blade whitout etching it , is the way the rustpittings eat into the iron.(many little holes in old rusty wootz blades). the relativ long sword of yours is used ,as i have read ,specially for gunners in the deccan. the age can range as stated by other members from the sixtheenth-century onwards.many of thes items are mutch older then the look ,it is the same as in the keris -buisness , very hard to say sometimes,the blades dont talk! hindu arms and ritual from robert elgood has good pictures and datings ! i have traveld through half india from arsenal to arsenal to get more knowledge ,i still have the feeling im a little ignorant boy! greetings iskender

estcrh · 9th February 2016, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

What does one look for to distinguish trade blades from local blades?

Some questions just can not be accurately answered, here is a very similar firangi, very old with no markings compared to Cerjaks firangi, how can one know if the blade was European or a locally made copy unless the blade was wootz, the lack or addition of markings does not tell us anything for sure.

ariel · 10th February 2016, 12:59 AM

Here is mine.
A single wide and gently rounded fuller, 2 markings, a "star" and Genoese "jaws"
I would guess we may have a reasonably high degree of certainty that the blade is European.

I always thought that blades with 2 or 3 narrow, deep and rectangular fullers are "local" more likely than not: I have seen a lot of them on North-African and Indian blades. Am I wrong?

estcrh · 10th February 2016, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Here is mine.
A single wide and gently rounded fuller, 2 markings, a "star" and Genoese "jaws"
I would guess we may have a reasonably high degree of certainty that the blade is European.

I always thought that blades with 2 or 3 narrow, deep and rectangular fullers are "local" more likely than not: I have seen a lot of them on North-African and Indian blades. Am I wrong?

Ariel, we know that marks were copied not only by Indian smiths but also by some European smiths, I think it would take someone with a lot of European sword knowledge to help answer both of your questions.

iskender · 11th February 2016, 12:05 AM

IF the blade would be made in india ,would you still call it a firangi? ( i am not a hero loading up pictures ,i still need the help of my kids) as soon as possible i will upload my swords simmilar to the copies allready shown! as till then i can say that european exportblades with 2-3 fullers and realy are genuine european blades (not lookalike copies) have a other tone when you tick them with your fingernails. the wootz -blades sound dull, the others like a bell! (more ore less ,i am not a musician) you must try it out yourself and look if it gives some sense! the blade of ariel could be european from the form ,difficult to say when you are not a clairvoyant ! good evening iskender

Timo Nieminen · 13th February 2016, 01:40 AM

So, a library of European and local examples with photos and sounds would be just the thing!

(2-3 narrow fullers is common enough on European cavalry blades of the 17th and 18th centuries; also 1 narrow fuller.)

ariel · 13th February 2016, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskender

IF the blade would be made in india ,would you still call it a firangi?

Totally analogous local examples were called either Sukhela or Dhup.

And Timo is correct: European blades often sported 2-3 narrow fullers, and this was faithfully copied by the locals in India and N. Africa.

estcrh · 14th February 2016, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskender

IF the blade would be made in india ,would you still call it a firangi?

I would still call it a firangi if it was made in the same style or maybe a "firangi style sword with Indian blade".

Now would you call a tulwar hilted sword with a similar European / European looking blade a firangi, if not what would it be called?

ariel · 15th February 2016, 11:49 AM

If the blade is truly European, then by definition it would be a Firangi ( foreigner, European). If a locally-made copy, then it would be a Dhup or Sukhela. At least how I imagine the locals would call it:-)

And I would not dwell on the handle: they were switched left and right.

I have a "tulwar" with a European blade that used to sport an Indian "basket hilt" long ago: under the langets it still has an outline of the riveting plates and the rivet hole.

Remember old posts by Fernando? The one in which he reported Daehnhardt mentioning his conversation with an Indian Rajah about separate storage of handles and blades in local arsenals and their assemblage in case of need? Almost all examples in the Fiegel's book sport blades and handles dated separately.

Timo Nieminen · 15th February 2016, 11:10 PM

Speaking of rivet holes, are those brass plugs near the hilt in the preceding sword filling rivet holes from an older hilt?

ariel · 16th February 2016, 12:51 AM

Quite likely.

estcrh · 17th February 2016, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If the blade is truly European, then by definition it would be a Firangi ( foreigner, European). If a locally-made copy, then it would be a Dhup or Sukhela. At least how I imagine the locals would call it:-)

And I would not dwell on the handle: they were switched left and right.

And if you do not know whether a swords European looking blade is actually European or a locally made copy then the sword is by default a "firangi"?

ariel · 17th February 2016, 03:31 AM

Whose fault is by default? :-)

21st February 2015, 10:17 AM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Firangi for comment This firangi is with a single edge long blade. This blade is very flexible Overall length: 121 cm the blade 100 cm How old could be this sword ? Attached Images

18th March 2015, 09:05 AM	#3
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	a nice old picture a nice old picture from 1865 Attached Images

9th February 2016, 06:58 PM	#11
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	Firangi ? Kirach? to be or not to be is the question! as firangi in my understanding means outlander , every type of indian weapon with a foreign blade will be addressed as "firangi" . mostly (many) indian blades are arbitrated and polished ,you will never see the wootz-structure or a lamination visible! but for sure , a european export-blade will never be forged from wootz. what can give a hint on a blade whitout etching it , is the way the rustpittings eat into the iron.(many little holes in old rusty wootz blades). the relativ long sword of yours is used ,as i have read ,specially for gunners in the deccan. the age can range as stated by other members from the sixtheenth-century onwards.many of thes items are mutch older then the look ,it is the same as in the keris -buisness , very hard to say sometimes,the blades dont talk! hindu arms and ritual from robert elgood has good pictures and datings ! i have traveld through half india from arsenal to arsenal to get more knowledge ,i still have the feeling im a little ignorant boy! greetings iskender

10th February 2016, 12:59 AM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Here is mine. A single wide and gently rounded fuller, 2 markings, a "star" and Genoese "jaws" I would guess we may have a reasonably high degree of certainty that the blade is European. I always thought that blades with 2 or 3 narrow, deep and rectangular fullers are "local" more likely than not: I have seen a lot of them on North-African and Indian blades. Am I wrong? Attached Images

11th February 2016, 12:05 AM	#15
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	firangi for comment IF the blade would be made in india ,would you still call it a firangi? ( i am not a hero loading up pictures ,i still need the help of my kids) as soon as possible i will upload my swords simmilar to the copies allready shown! as till then i can say that european exportblades with 2-3 fullers and realy are genuine european blades (not lookalike copies) have a other tone when you tick them with your fingernails. the wootz -blades sound dull, the others like a bell! (more ore less ,i am not a musician) you must try it out yourself and look if it gives some sense! the blade of ariel could be european from the form ,difficult to say when you are not a clairvoyant ! good evening iskender

21st February 2015, 11:08 AM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	I forgot to mention that the blade is single edge but 2 edges the last 25 cm

22nd March 2015, 02:40 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Any markings on the blade?

23rd March 2015, 12:40 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	From the limited photos, this blade does not look European to me. Likely, locally-made Sukhela or Dhup. 18th century is possible, but the first half of the 19th is also probable: 200 years old, give or take. In any case, it is older than my mother-in-law.

9th February 2016, 04:09 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting question Timo, and you should have had more attention when you asked it - sorry. Sometimes the Indian copies of an European blade is so close that you cant be sure, it could be either European or Indian made. At other times it is a bit easier to see, like the way the fullers are made - not quite like the ones on European blades, or if the blades are stamped, the way the stamps have been made. A ricasso could mean an Indian made blade, but although the Europeans made a lot of blades for export to India, these will mostly be Indian blades, but not always. Sometimes it is quite easy to say, but not always - especially not on photos.

13th February 2016, 01:40 AM	#16
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	So, a library of European and local examples with photos and sounds would be just the thing! (2-3 narrow fullers is common enough on European cavalry blades of the 17th and 18th centuries; also 1 narrow fuller.)

15th February 2016, 11:49 AM	#19
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If the blade is truly European, then by definition it would be a Firangi ( foreigner, European). If a locally-made copy, then it would be a Dhup or Sukhela. At least how I imagine the locals would call it:-) And I would not dwell on the handle: they were switched left and right. I have a "tulwar" with a European blade that used to sport an Indian "basket hilt" long ago: under the langets it still has an outline of the riveting plates and the rivet hole. Remember old posts by Fernando? The one in which he reported Daehnhardt mentioning his conversation with an Indian Rajah about separate storage of handles and blades in local arsenals and their assemblage in case of need? Almost all examples in the Fiegel's book sport blades and handles dated separately.

15th February 2016, 11:10 PM	#20
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Speaking of rivet holes, are those brass plugs near the hilt in the preceding sword filling rivet holes from an older hilt?

16th February 2016, 12:51 AM	#21
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Quite likely.

17th February 2016, 03:31 AM	#23
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Whose fault is by default? :-)