Oriental sword

Multumesc · 20th December 2014, 08:44 PM

Hello.Dear friends, please help me and me about this sword.I'd like to know which countries belong and how old it is.Thank you very much.

Multumesc · 20th December 2014, 08:47 PM

estcrh · 20th December 2014, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multumesc

Hello.Dear friends, please help me and me about this sword.I'd like to know which countries belong and how old it is.Thank you very much.

Your sword is an Indian tulwar, it would be considered as an "Indo-Persian" sword instead of an "Oriental" sword. Maybe another forum member can add some additional information such as age or region.

Oliver Pinchot · 21st December 2014, 07:14 AM

This tulwar is purely Indian, and looks to be an arsenal sword of the early 20th century. Good point regarding attribution there, Estcrh. The term "Oriental" has long since been superseded. We can even take it a step further:

In the 19th century, Wilbrahim Egerton, among others, used the term Indo-Persian to refer to weapons made in India, primarily though not exclusively by the Mughals, which to a greater or lesser extent were based on Persian prototypes. These may be precise copies of Persian work but for a particular Mughal characteristic, or distinctly Indian but showing a degree of Persian influence. A good example of an Indo-Persian sword would be the Mughal shamshir pictured below; it's close in form to the Persian, but displays Mughal characteristics (in the form and scale of the guard and pommel and the type of embellishment found on them.)

Regretably, the term Indo-Persian began to be applied much more generally back in the 1950s, to any weapon which might be Persian or Indian, Afghan, Ottoman or even Caucasian, and so it remains to the present. I mention this because I think most forum members will agree that specificity and clarity in terminology are central to the scientific discourse.

estcrh · 21st December 2014, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Regretably, the term Indo-Persian began to be applied much more generally back in the 1950s, to any weapon which might be Persian or Indian, Afghan, Ottoman or even Caucasian, and so it remains to the present. I mention this because I think most forum members will agree that specificity and clarity in terminology are central to the scientific discourse.

Oliver, from what I have observed it was the internet which caused "Indo-Persian" to cast such a wide net. Auctions, Ebay, dealers and buyers realized that search engines could scan and find specific terms. Using "Indo-Persian" as a catch all term made it easy to find and sell armor and weapons etc which would have previously been described in a dozen different terms.

Items from Germany, Italy, France etc could be lumped together under "European" but what about the items listed as "Oriental, Muslim, Eastern, Ottoman, Persian, Arab etc. "Indo-Persian" started to take the place of the many different terms. I use "IndoPersian" as an umbrella term as no other term currently in use brings items from so so diverse but closely related cultures together.

As often happens, terms change over the years and it seems that "Indo-Persian" has taken on an entirely new meaning. On a positive note, when you search online for "Indo-Persian weapons" or "Indo-Persian armor" you will find a vast amount of images and information that was not available even a few years ago without using many different search terms.

Multumesc · 1st January 2015, 04:56 PM

I was told that the sword is a sword africaine.Ma question is: In Africa were also produced and swords (tulwar)? I asked this question because they are very comfuz, after the owner told me said this is an African sword.

Thank You.

kronckew · 1st January 2015, 05:10 PM

definitely NOT african.

the brits of course had colonial ties with india, pakistan, afghanistan and africa, and it's possible an official or military person collected it in india, carried it to africa and it remained there after he died or left for elsewhere, and was aquired by an african family who treasured it and passed it down until it's story was forgotten.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st January 2015, 05:58 PM

The hilt is new, but the blade could be an old one.
I have lightened and sharpened the picture a bit.

Multumesc · 1st January 2015, 06:24 PM

I do not believe that the handle is new, what evidence you have in saying this it ????

Jens Nordlunde · 1st January 2015, 07:09 PM

Try to have a searc of 'Tulwars'.
You will see a lot and you will also see the different hilts.

ariel · 1st January 2015, 09:41 PM

I would agree with Jens ( pretty safe way out:-)
The "newness" of the handle is its amorphous form, rather slapdash minimalistic adherence to the classical form(s), omission of any details giving it artistic character. Regulation arsenal pattern, mass-produced to arm a multitude of men at the lowest expence possible.
The blade is a different kettle of fish. It can be also new, or it can be old and even valuable. But here you need to use a lot of oil, steel wool, effort, panting and risk multiple abrasions. That is what we all do, so join the club:-)
And a very Happy New Year to you and yours!

Jens Nordlunde · 1st January 2015, 10:15 PM

Can you take a better picture of the blade decoration - close up, and sharp?
Do it in daylight, outside when it is clouded.
What do you collect - Indian or African?

Sorry I forgot Happy New Year to you all :-)

20th December 2014, 08:44 PM	#1
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	Oriental sword Hello.Dear friends, please help me and me about this sword.I'd like to know which countries belong and how old it is.Thank you very much. Attached Images

20th December 2014, 08:47 PM	#2
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	Oriental sword Attached Images

21st December 2014, 07:14 AM	#4
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	This tulwar is purely Indian, and looks to be an arsenal sword of the early 20th century. Good point regarding attribution there, Estcrh. The term "Oriental" has long since been superseded. We can even take it a step further: In the 19th century, Wilbrahim Egerton, among others, used the term Indo-Persian to refer to weapons made in India, primarily though not exclusively by the Mughals, which to a greater or lesser extent were based on Persian prototypes. These may be precise copies of Persian work but for a particular Mughal characteristic, or distinctly Indian but showing a degree of Persian influence. A good example of an Indo-Persian sword would be the Mughal shamshir pictured below; it's close in form to the Persian, but displays Mughal characteristics (in the form and scale of the guard and pommel and the type of embellishment found on them.) Regretably, the term Indo-Persian began to be applied much more generally back in the 1950s, to any weapon which might be Persian or Indian, Afghan, Ottoman or even Caucasian, and so it remains to the present. I mention this because I think most forum members will agree that specificity and clarity in terminology are central to the scientific discourse. Attached Images Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 21st December 2014 at 07:25 AM.

1st January 2015, 04:56 PM	#6
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	Oriental sword I was told that the sword is a sword africaine.Ma question is: In Africa were also produced and swords (tulwar)? I asked this question because they are very comfuz, after the owner told me said this is an African sword. Thank You.

1st January 2015, 05:58 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The hilt is new, but the blade could be an old one. I have lightened and sharpened the picture a bit. Attached Images

1st January 2015, 05:10 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	definitely NOT african. the brits of course had colonial ties with india, pakistan, afghanistan and africa, and it's possible an official or military person collected it in india, carried it to africa and it remained there after he died or left for elsewhere, and was aquired by an african family who treasured it and passed it down until it's story was forgotten.

1st January 2015, 06:24 PM	#9
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	I do not believe that the handle is new, what evidence you have in saying this it ????

1st January 2015, 07:09 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Try to have a searc of 'Tulwars'. You will see a lot and you will also see the different hilts.

1st January 2015, 09:41 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would agree with Jens ( pretty safe way out:-) The "newness" of the handle is its amorphous form, rather slapdash minimalistic adherence to the classical form(s), omission of any details giving it artistic character. Regulation arsenal pattern, mass-produced to arm a multitude of men at the lowest expence possible. The blade is a different kettle of fish. It can be also new, or it can be old and even valuable. But here you need to use a lot of oil, steel wool, effort, panting and risk multiple abrasions. That is what we all do, so join the club:-) And a very Happy New Year to you and yours!

1st January 2015, 10:15 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Can you take a better picture of the blade decoration - close up, and sharp? Do it in daylight, outside when it is clouded. What do you collect - Indian or African? Sorry I forgot Happy New Year to you all :-)