Interesting WW2 Philippine machete sword ?

drac2k · 9th November 2014, 10:23 PM

I just acquired this interesting machete sword and I think it could be WW2 Philippine ; I usually think of these type of converted machetes as being African, so if someone told me it was I wouldn't be shocked.

Sajen · 9th November 2014, 11:04 PM

I think that it is indeed an African machete, nothing let me think that it is from the Philippines. I have seen this UK machete blades with many different fittings and so far I know this or similar blades still in production but unsure about this.

Regards,
Detlef

drac2k · 10th November 2014, 12:26 AM

Yes, I was kind of afraid of that; the seller swore that his father brought it back from the Philippines .It's not the first time that I've been told disinformation, but it's all part of the game.

Battara · 10th November 2014, 12:33 AM

Yes, I also don't think this is Filipino but African.

drac2k · 10th November 2014, 12:43 AM

As to the date of the blade, after doing a quick internet search, "Robert Mole and Sons," made blades 1875-1879, 1880-1881, & 1894 ; this is "Sons," not to confused with "Robert Mole," or "Robert Mole and Son."
Any ideas on how old and where from Africa it came from ? Could it be Haitian?

Shakethetrees · 10th November 2014, 04:45 AM

I think it's a British issue machete blade that was remounted. The expanded tip bears strong similarities to issue machetes I've seen.

The mounts have a Philippine "feel" to me, circa 1940's, but the leatherwork with the tassels and tooling looks Mexican or Central American.

spiral · 10th November 2014, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

I think it's a British issue machete blade that was remounted. The expanded tip bears strong similarities to issue machetes I've seen.
.

I agree the style is similar to the old Brit army Machete, but that one is carrying civilian marks. Not the military ones.

Although "& sons" was a 19th century version company name,.

What was actually stamped on the weapons & tools didn't always match, the continually changing company names.

Mole registered the Steamer Trade Mark in 1886 and used it up to November 1920 .

Looking at the font ,Id guess the early 20th century seems likely.

These machetes were common in West Africa & the Caribbean & often "customised" in both areas...

spiral

Ian · 10th November 2014, 08:42 PM

I would just add to Spiral's comment that these "modified" machetes were indeed common in the West Indies, and I have several with Island names stamped into the leather sheaths (Trinidad, Tobago, Jamaica, etc.). The tassels and other decorations on the sheath of this one remind me of the West Indies examples I have seen.

Ian.

spiral · 10th November 2014, 09:02 PM

I am sure weve all realised , but no ones mentioned it yet, the scabbard is probably at least 80 years younger than the blade....

spiral

Battara · 11th November 2014, 12:21 AM

The scabbard could be from the Americas and the piece got reheated, which it looks. Again not Filipino though.

Rick · 11th November 2014, 01:26 AM

Agree with Ian; I think it's probably West Indies/S. American .

The hilt is also recognized as a Figa; a popular Brazilian charm .

drac2k · 11th November 2014, 03:54 AM

The "figa charm," motif held promise until I look it up ; a "figa fist," will have the thumb tucked under the forefinger .The fist that I have is clenching a bar,with tacks that could be interpreted in the shape of a cross.
The scabbard, although newer than the blade does have age and it is very well made; the cloth portion on the bottom is canvas; maybe this is to allow the blade to breathe or maybe it has some talismanic value.
I think the key to identification is the fist.

Robert · 11th November 2014, 04:58 AM

I must agree that this is most likely an African piece. The clenched fist was a common symbol used there as a sign of resistance and defiance just as it was in many countries other than the Philippines. The only thing that even looks remotely Philippine to me is the general styling of the leather sheath, but with the use of the brass eyelets, the manner in which the belt loops are attached and the tooling I think that the sheath was made post WWII and most likely somewhere south of the border as a replacement.

Best,
Robert

drac2k · 11th November 2014, 06:08 AM

I can't disagree with anything you say except the eyelets on the scabbard could be plastic, but I think they are bone and purely for ornamentation; there is nothing but stitching holding the sheath together, no brass. The belt loop is more like a bayonet frog and it is a separate piece, cleverly going through a loop on the backside, 2 fingers back, one forward (sorry better pictures would have shown that).
I don't know where it came from or how old, but it's well made.

Shakethetrees · 11th November 2014, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

The belt loop is more like a bayonet frog and it is a separate piece, cleverly going through a loop on the backside, 2 fingers back, one forward (sorry better pictures would have shown that).
I don't know where it came from or how old, but it's well made.

Now that I think of it, this "over and under" method of construction was used on pistol holsters from Mexico during the early 20th century.

I'm not sure if there is necessarily any direct link here, but I find it worth mentioning.

drac2k · 11th November 2014, 07:55 PM

Very interesting ; was this strictly 19th Century Mexican or also Colonial Spanish ?

Shakethetrees · 11th November 2014, 09:49 PM

It's hard for me to say. I have not made a study of earlier objects. The holsters were just adjuncts to a few revolvers I have either seen or owned over the years.

spiral · 11th November 2014, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

I can't disagree with anything you say except the eyelets on the scabbard could be plastic, but I think they are bone and purely for ornamentation; .

Bone wont do that job, in that manner at those dimesions, so there clearly plastic. Good close up photos would prove it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Now that I think of it, this "over and under" method of construction was used on pistol holsters from Mexico during the early 20th century..

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Very interesting ; was this strictly 19th Century Mexican or also Colonial Spanish ?

Where did 19 th century come from on this detail?

spiral

ausjulius · 24th November 2014, 04:37 PM

its form the Caribbean.. they can come with a hand a boot a rooster or a dogs head.. ..
generally the nonspanish speaking areas prefer these styles.. in Jamaica theyll call it a cutlass
the spanish style tooled sheaths are typical but ive seen wooden ones.. atleast for tourist items..

Rick · 24th November 2014, 05:17 PM

Aha, another vote for West Indies .
I'm not alone .

Tim Simmons · 24th November 2014, 05:41 PM

Yeah, that fist is common to West Africa. Often with the thumb poking out between the forefinger and the ring finger.

Ian · 25th November 2014, 05:04 AM

Because the ancestors of a substantial fraction of the West Indies' population came from Africa, and the West Indies were a British possession, does it not seem most logical to think this machete came from the West Indies? This would explain the apparent African motifs as well as why an English machete came to have this hilt.

Furthermore, we know of several examples of fist-hilted Mole machete blades of the same shape that came from the W.I. and wore similar leather sheaths. While more complicated explanations are always possible, a W.I. origin seems the simplest and most compelling to me.

9th November 2014, 10:23 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Interesting WW2 Philippine machete sword ? I just acquired this interesting machete sword and I think it could be WW2 Philippine ; I usually think of these type of converted machetes as being African, so if someone told me it was I wouldn't be shocked. Attached Images

9th November 2014, 11:04 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	I think that it is indeed an African machete, nothing let me think that it is from the Philippines. I have seen this UK machete blades with many different fittings and so far I know this or similar blades still in production but unsure about this. Regards, Detlef

10th November 2014, 12:26 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Yes, I was kind of afraid of that; the seller swore that his father brought it back from the Philippines .It's not the first time that I've been told disinformation, but it's all part of the game.

10th November 2014, 12:33 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Yes, I also don't think this is Filipino but African.

10th November 2014, 12:43 AM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	As to the date of the blade, after doing a quick internet search, "Robert Mole and Sons," made blades 1875-1879, 1880-1881, & 1894 ; this is "Sons," not to confused with "Robert Mole," or "Robert Mole and Son." Any ideas on how old and where from Africa it came from ? Could it be Haitian?

10th November 2014, 04:45 AM	#6
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I think it's a British issue machete blade that was remounted. The expanded tip bears strong similarities to issue machetes I've seen. The mounts have a Philippine "feel" to me, circa 1940's, but the leatherwork with the tassels and tooling looks Mexican or Central American.

10th November 2014, 08:42 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,199	I would just add to Spiral's comment that these "modified" machetes were indeed common in the West Indies, and I have several with Island names stamped into the leather sheaths (Trinidad, Tobago, Jamaica, etc.). The tassels and other decorations on the sheath of this one remind me of the West Indies examples I have seen. Ian.

10th November 2014, 09:02 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I am sure weve all realised , but no ones mentioned it yet, the scabbard is probably at least 80 years younger than the blade.... spiral

11th November 2014, 12:21 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	The scabbard could be from the Americas and the piece got reheated, which it looks. Again not Filipino though.

11th November 2014, 01:26 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Agree with Ian; I think it's probably West Indies/S. American . The hilt is also recognized as a Figa; a popular Brazilian charm .

11th November 2014, 03:54 AM	#12
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	The "figa charm," motif held promise until I look it up ; a "figa fist," will have the thumb tucked under the forefinger .The fist that I have is clenching a bar,with tacks that could be interpreted in the shape of a cross. The scabbard, although newer than the blade does have age and it is very well made; the cloth portion on the bottom is canvas; maybe this is to allow the blade to breathe or maybe it has some talismanic value. I think the key to identification is the fist.

11th November 2014, 04:58 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I must agree that this is most likely an African piece. The clenched fist was a common symbol used there as a sign of resistance and defiance just as it was in many countries other than the Philippines. The only thing that even looks remotely Philippine to me is the general styling of the leather sheath, but with the use of the brass eyelets, the manner in which the belt loops are attached and the tooling I think that the sheath was made post WWII and most likely somewhere south of the border as a replacement. Best, Robert

11th November 2014, 06:08 AM	#14
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	I can't disagree with anything you say except the eyelets on the scabbard could be plastic, but I think they are bone and purely for ornamentation; there is nothing but stitching holding the sheath together, no brass. The belt loop is more like a bayonet frog and it is a separate piece, cleverly going through a loop on the backside, 2 fingers back, one forward (sorry better pictures would have shown that). I don't know where it came from or how old, but it's well made.

11th November 2014, 07:55 PM	#16
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Very interesting ; was this strictly 19th Century Mexican or also Colonial Spanish ?

11th November 2014, 09:49 PM	#17
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	It's hard for me to say. I have not made a study of earlier objects. The holsters were just adjuncts to a few revolvers I have either seen or owned over the years.

24th November 2014, 04:37 PM	#19
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	its form the Caribbean.. they can come with a hand a boot a rooster or a dogs head.. .. generally the nonspanish speaking areas prefer these styles.. in Jamaica theyll call it a cutlass the spanish style tooled sheaths are typical but ive seen wooden ones.. atleast for tourist items..

24th November 2014, 05:17 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Aha, another vote for West Indies . I'm not alone .

24th November 2014, 05:41 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yeah, that fist is common to West Africa. Often with the thumb poking out between the forefinger and the ring finger.

25th November 2014, 05:04 AM	#22
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,199	Because the ancestors of a substantial fraction of the West Indies' population came from Africa, and the West Indies were a British possession, does it not seem most logical to think this machete came from the West Indies? This would explain the apparent African motifs as well as why an English machete came to have this hilt. Furthermore, we know of several examples of fist-hilted Mole machete blades of the same shape that came from the W.I. and wore similar leather sheaths. While more complicated explanations are always possible, a W.I. origin seems the simplest and most compelling to me.