Takouba supposedly from the 30's

[blue lander]

The seller said he thought this one was made in the 30's. It definitely feels older than my other ones. The pommel is brass and the fullers looked forged. The blade has a bit of a distal taper and it's thicker overall than my newer takoubas. It also feels lumpy like it was pounded into shape.

There's a lot of "seams" visible on the steel. A few run the entire length of the blade. After I cleaned the steel up I noticed a weird splotchy pattern on the blade as well.

Do you think it's really from the 30's? Is it made from spring steel? I assume there weren't a lot of surplus truck suspensions floating around Africa back then.

[Kubur]

Hi

I have no problem with 1930ties.
You should look this web site
http://takouba.org/catalog/
You should find yours...

Regards,
Kubur

[thinreadline]

Its hard to say, it could be , but equally may well be much later . Was the seller an African arms specialist or an antique dealer. If the latter he may be ( inappropriately ) referencing the geometric patterns and the vivid lime greens as 'African' Art Deco !

[blue lander]

The seller didn't seem to have any expertise. He just "thought" it was from the 30's with no explanation for why. I didn't pay much for it so I wouldn't be horrified if it was newer.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Hi blue lander,
I would say (just feeling) the sheath is conterporary (due to the relatively fresh colour; witnessed how they made such sheaths a few years ago). Newertheless the sheath is not definitely from the thirties. Also the pommel is dicky (if it is Tuareg from thirties, it would be better worked).
Martin

[thinreadline]

Yes I would agree with Martin on the pommel , it does seem poorly executed for the supposed period . My point about the 'Art Deco' dating is based on a similar experience at an antiques fair, where a seller had a similarly decorated scabbard which he 'surmised' was from the 1930s due to the similarity of the patterning to a piece of Clarice Cliff pottery he was also selling ! I really dont think the fashionable European Art Deco movement had much impact on sub Saharan Africa in the 1930s ! I am afraid some dealers just 'wing' it when it comes to ID & dating of items. I remember years ago how a quite eminent member of the Antiques Roadshow admitted to me that when he first started out in the antiques trade , his boss told him , never admit you dont know what an item is or what its age is, just make it up ... nothing deters a potential customer more than a dealer who appears not to know what they are selling !

[Shakethetrees]

A good, acceptable, answer might be to just say it is twentieth century, and if further focus is needed to call it pre war or post war.

WWII brought a lot of materials and outside exposure to places that were before the war, isolated from outsiders.

A lot of debris wound up following armies to North Africa (as well as everywhere else!). Magazines, stuff from the civilian market, etc., could have been picked up from trash piles or traded and, to use a recently coined word that is now currently in fashion, "repurposed" in unexpected ways. One thing that comes to mind are the Chinese daggers with fake tortoise shell grips, where cellophane or some other clear flexible material was wrapped over cigarette box paper to create a poor imitation of shell. How well this held up over time is reflective on the their scarcity.

Sometime even construction methods have been upgraded due to this exposure. The surplus of available steel and brass and other metals and new materials made piecing together in the old manner not necessary anymore. Aluminum crept into the picture, used in grips and mountings from Afghanistan to the Philippines and elsewhere.

New tools and the availability of electricity and acetylene torches had a tremendous impact on manufacturing, leaving its fingerprint primarily as grind marks and welding beads not ground and finished out.

The study of these traditional weapons made using non traditional materials could be an interesting study on its own.

But I digress...

My point is to say that all of this should be taken into consideration when dating a weapon, or any other bit of cultural material, for that matter.

We are living just past the largest shift ever witnessed where old methods and materials disappeared and new ones emerged.

[blue lander]

Would it be a stretch to put it pre WWII? I think its older than my other takoubas because the pommel cap is solid brass rather than stacked discs, and the fullers look forged rather than chiseled.

[Martin Lubojacky]

I think the question of pommel - if it is made of solid material or stacked discs, is more regional matter than the matter of the age (solid pommel - southern Sahel region, like North Nigeria, Cameroon, discs - desert). But this seems so be desert/Touareg like, but solid at the same time - I mean quick method of production, simplification, newer item. Maybe I am oversimplifying and wrong. I would personaly be interested in Iain´s opinion.
Regards,
Martin

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

A good, acceptable, answer might be to just say it is twentieth century, and if further focus is needed to call it pre war or post war.

WWII brought a lot of materials and outside exposure to places that were before the war, isolated from outsiders.

A lot of debris wound up following armies to North Africa (as well as everywhere else!). Magazines, stuff from the civilian market, etc., could have been picked up from trash piles or traded and, to use a recently coined word that is now currently in fashion, "repurposed" in unexpected ways. One thing that comes to mind are the Chinese daggers with fake tortoise shell grips, where cellophane or some other clear flexible material was wrapped over cigarette box paper to create a poor imitation of shell. How well this held up over time is reflective on the their scarcity.



Sometime even construction methods have been upgraded due to this exposure. The surplus of available steel and brass and other metals and new materials made piecing together in the old manner not necessary anymore. Aluminum crept into the picture, used in grips and mountings from Afghanistan to the Philippines and elsewhere.



New tools and the availability of electricity and acetylene torches had a tremendous impact on manufacturing, leaving its fingerprint primarily as grind marks and welding beads not ground and finished out.

The study of these traditional weapons made using non traditional materials could be an interesting study on its own.

But I digress...

My point is to say that all of this should be taken into consideration when dating a weapon, or any other bit of cultural material, for that matter.

We are living just past the largest shift ever witnessed where old methods and materials disappeared and new ones emerged.

What an excellent summary , very well thought out.

[Iain]

To be perfectly honest I've spent the least amount of time studying the stacked pommel form. So...

I'd say the sword could be pre WWII, but I'd be more likely to assume it's 1950s-1970s.

The pommel stack is decently made, but is not particularly well executed. A tell tale sign is also that the base element is two flat discs. On older swords you see a slight curve to the top base plate. This is due to the heritage of the stacked design being derived from the oval pommel design.

The leather work is certainly much more recent.

In general I would hesitate to try and pin it down to a decade and just say second half of the 20th century.

Hopefully the attached image will help to illustrate my point about the pommel.