Unknown Indonesian sword

Sajen · 26th October 2014, 01:19 PM

Hello all,

I get offered this weird sword which is clearly Indonesian, my guess would be Bali or Lombok, 2 ft 5 ins long, with nice pamor blade. The blade shape remember me to some Lombok cundrik I've seen and handled but the handle and scabbard with either silver or german silver sheet covered is very unusual. I have the permission to post the pictures here. For the blade shape of Lombok cundrik have a look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cundrik
Have someone seen something similar before and will be able to name this sword and know the origin?
Thank you in advance,
Detlef

Tim Simmons · 26th October 2014, 03:34 PM

Same blade form just a little shorter.

Royston · 26th October 2014, 05:27 PM

Sajen

Have a look at my post of the 22nd Oct 2008 - the scabbard is similar.

The "sabre" in this photo has a similar blade. Always assumed it to be from Java or Sumatra.

Regards
Roy

Sajen · 26th October 2014, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Same blade form just a little shorter.

Thank you Tim,

yes, very similar blade shape! This would confirm my guess that it is a cundrik in unusual mounts.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 26th October 2014, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

Sajen

Have a look at my post of the 22nd Oct 2008 - the scabbard is similar.

The "sabre" in this photo has a similar blade. Always assumed it to be from Java or Sumatra.

Regards
Roy

Hello Roy,

I think you mean this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7368
Again, this would also confirm my guess, Bali, Lombok or also Java for origin and most proable a cundrik. Thank you!

Regards,
Detlef

VANDOO · 26th October 2014, 06:43 PM

IT LOOKS LIKE A SWAGGER STICK WITH A BLADE INSIDE. SWAGGER STICKS WERE POPULAR AND OFTEN SEEN CARRIED BY OFFICERS AND SUCH AT LEAST THEY WERE IN THE MOVIES.

PERHAPS ITS A INDONESIAN VERSION OF SWAGGER STICK, BATON, WHICH DENOTES RANK AND CAN SERVE AS A WEAPON IF NEEDED.

Royston · 26th October 2014, 07:04 PM

That's the one Sajen

I can never work out how to put a link on here.

Regards
Roy

Sajen · 26th October 2014, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IT LOOKS LIKE A SWAGGER STICK WITH A BLADE INSIDE. SWAGGER STICKS WERE POPULAR AND OFTEN SEEN CARRIED BY OFFICERS AND SUCH AT LEAST THEY WERE IN THE MOVIES.

PERHAPS ITS A INDONESIAN VERSION OF SWAGGER STICK, BATON, WHICH DENOTES RANK AND CAN SERVE AS A WEAPON IF NEEDED.

Hello Barry,

thank you for this very good suggestion! This make sense, again very good suggestion!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 26th October 2014, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

That's the one Sajen

I can never work out how to put a link on here.

Regards
Roy

Hello Roy,

I am sure you can! Keep in your reply, open a second window, search for the link and mark it in the browser with the right mouse taste, "copy", go back to to your reply, left mouse taste and after this the right mouse taste, "paste" and all is done!
Thank you again,
Detlef

paolo · 27th October 2014, 01:04 PM

Just a guess. On the van Zonneveld book page 61 (fig.185) there is a similar one quoted as KASO.
Paolo

Sajen · 27th October 2014, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paolo

Just a guess. On the van Zonneveld book page 61 (fig.185) there is a similar one quoted as KASO.
Paolo

Hello Paolo,

have thought about this as well but the blade shape and also the handle is quite different. And a kaso is also longer, look what is written there about the use of a kaso.
I think that the suggestion from Barry that it could be a swagger-stick is a very good one.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 27th October 2014, 02:19 PM

It is probable that this weapon is of Lombok origin where it would be known as a tempius or a sendirung.

The designation of "cundrik" --- or perhaps more correctly "cunderik" --- seems to be a very confused one that can range all the way from klewang type weapons to small daggers that women hide in their clothing. However, the item that Tim has shown in post #2 is definitely identified as a cunderik by Djelenga.

But Tim's item is significantly different to the item Detlef has posted.

If we are prepared to accept Djelenga as arbiter, this is probably more correctly either a sendirung or a tempius --- at least on Lombok.

As an aside, I've never really been able to understand how the designation of "cunderik" can be applied to anything other than a small weapon. As a dhapur the word refers to a small type of keris, but an even greater argument against the application of "cunderik" to something large is the fact that Indonesian and Malay languages tend to be very onomatopoeic, in other words the sound of a word is very often , perhaps usually, indicative of the nature of the thing it describes, thus little things sound little, big things sound big, and in at least a Javanese sense, the word "cunderik" sounds little.

Long ago I asked a member of the family of the Mangkunegara exactly what a cunderik was, I met him in the museum attached to the Mangkunegaraan, and he took me across the room and showed me a display case full of extremely elegant women's(?) daggers, quite small, and very expensively mounted. To him, these were cunderik.

Sajen · 28th October 2014, 01:49 PM

Thank you Alan for your very informative respond!

Regards,
Detlef

26th October 2014, 01:19 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Unknown Indonesian sword Hello all, I get offered this weird sword which is clearly Indonesian, my guess would be Bali or Lombok, 2 ft 5 ins long, with nice pamor blade. The blade shape remember me to some Lombok cundrik I've seen and handled but the handle and scabbard with either silver or german silver sheet covered is very unusual. I have the permission to post the pictures here. For the blade shape of Lombok cundrik have a look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cundrik Have someone seen something similar before and will be able to name this sword and know the origin? Thank you in advance, Detlef Attached Images

26th October 2014, 05:27 PM	#3
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Sajen Have a look at my post of the 22nd Oct 2008 - the scabbard is similar. The "sabre" in this photo has a similar blade. Always assumed it to be from Java or Sumatra. Regards Roy Attached Images

26th October 2014, 03:34 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Same blade form just a little shorter. Attached Images

26th October 2014, 06:43 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT LOOKS LIKE A SWAGGER STICK WITH A BLADE INSIDE. SWAGGER STICKS WERE POPULAR AND OFTEN SEEN CARRIED BY OFFICERS AND SUCH AT LEAST THEY WERE IN THE MOVIES. PERHAPS ITS A INDONESIAN VERSION OF SWAGGER STICK, BATON, WHICH DENOTES RANK AND CAN SERVE AS A WEAPON IF NEEDED.

26th October 2014, 07:04 PM	#7
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	That's the one Sajen I can never work out how to put a link on here. Regards Roy

27th October 2014, 01:04 PM	#10
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Just a guess. On the van Zonneveld book page 61 (fig.185) there is a similar one quoted as KASO. Paolo

27th October 2014, 02:19 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	It is probable that this weapon is of Lombok origin where it would be known as a tempius or a sendirung. The designation of "cundrik" --- or perhaps more correctly "cunderik" --- seems to be a very confused one that can range all the way from klewang type weapons to small daggers that women hide in their clothing. However, the item that Tim has shown in post #2 is definitely identified as a cunderik by Djelenga. But Tim's item is significantly different to the item Detlef has posted. If we are prepared to accept Djelenga as arbiter, this is probably more correctly either a sendirung or a tempius --- at least on Lombok. As an aside, I've never really been able to understand how the designation of "cunderik" can be applied to anything other than a small weapon. As a dhapur the word refers to a small type of keris, but an even greater argument against the application of "cunderik" to something large is the fact that Indonesian and Malay languages tend to be very onomatopoeic, in other words the sound of a word is very often , perhaps usually, indicative of the nature of the thing it describes, thus little things sound little, big things sound big, and in at least a Javanese sense, the word "cunderik" sounds little. Long ago I asked a member of the family of the Mangkunegara exactly what a cunderik was, I met him in the museum attached to the Mangkunegaraan, and he took me across the room and showed me a display case full of extremely elegant women's(?) daggers, quite small, and very expensively mounted. To him, these were cunderik.

28th October 2014, 01:49 PM	#13
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Thank you Alan for your very informative respond! Regards, Detlef