Kindjal help needed

Rivkin · 6th January 2005, 12:34 AM

Dear All,

Here is my newest stuff - kindjal.
Attached - overall view, lamination lines at the tip, straight lines (what is it ??) at the base, maker's marks.

Can please someone help me with what kind of lamination/steel work it is ?
Maker's mark I think reads "Amale Shda" - made by Shda ? Oh, those who know arabic please correct me !

Should I experiment with vinegar or FeCl on this one, or the pattern is already well seen.

I also think it's really close to Astvatsaturjan page 355, on the bottom, third from the left (Transcaucasian marks).

It's unusually big (which votes for Transcaucasian origin), however it's two screws rather than 3 screws mount, and extremely unusual hilt for a Georgian kindjal (one part, lightly colored wood). Looks like an old shape.

I feel fantastic about this kindjal - it's heavy, 3 pounds, but it's so greatly balanced it moves very quickly, the only thing that gives away it's weight is that you feel tired after swinging it for a prolonged time.

Philip · 6th January 2005, 08:01 AM

From the photos, it appears as though your blade might be a tripartite construction. A central plate of high-carbon steel is sandwiched between two plates of iron or lower-carbon content steel. When the bevels are ground into the blade, the edge plate is exposed and when the blade is etched, appears as a narrow zone along each side. The gently undulating line that you see along the edge, a short distance from it, represents the demarcation between the plates. Often, the two "cheeks" on either side of the edge-plate may be laminates of iron/steel, or may fashioned from billets which are folded upon themselves, longitudinally, several times. In such case, a good polish and etch will reveal lengthwise striations between the exposed edge-plate and the central fullers.

This type of tripartite construction is quite common in a number of different cultures: China, Japan and Korea, the Philippines, parts of Europe, and other places.

Rivkin · 6th January 2005, 04:34 PM

Thank you very much !

To be honest, I've never done etching before - should I dunk the whole blade minus hilt into some plastic bottle with vinegar solution or should I just cover the blade with a thin layer of solution ? The problem is that the blade is way bigger rather than every bottle I have, and I don't know where to get such a huge bottle (and it would be impossible to heat it).

Thank you,

K.Rivkin

Jens Nordlunde · 6th January 2005, 05:06 PM

Hi Rivkin,

It is a nice kinjal, although I now very litle about them, but before you start etching have a look here or on one of the older threads about the subject.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=45926
Good luck.

Jens

Rivkin · 9th January 2005, 10:07 PM

Here is the blade after FeCl etching. I've seen this structure many time but what is it - I have no idea. I thought it's tri-partite, but it's actually formed by 4 (2 at each side from the fuller) separation lines. All of these lines are actually 1-2 mm thick. You can see on the picture 3 such lines - 1 very close to the edge at the foreground, and other two surrounding the fuller. Is it tri-partite+hamon ???

xakozh · 17th January 2005, 03:33 AM

Hi Rivkin,
This short size sword, the Kinjal is called " Qama" in Circassian is the blade that would replace the conventional sword in close arm combat. The steel is made in layers, manipulated in heat tempretures and soaked in water, over and over again to a degree where the blade bocomes so flexable and two sharp edged with two non-aligned groves to evacuate the stream of blood resulted from a stabbing in an arm fight.
This is a true Circassian Dagger used by all north Caucassian nations which is made a signifying symbol in their national costume, you can see every where in the Caucasus whenever a national event takes place!
A. Xakozh

tom hyle · 17th January 2005, 04:58 AM

It looks like an inlaid edge. Presumeably the other line occurs on both sides?....I guess it's a 5 (macro) layer situation, although both outer layers look to be more or less similar layery/fibrous material (probably wrought iron).

Rivkin · 17th January 2005, 06:40 AM

Xakozh:

Thank you, but the Blade has maker's stamps that are characteristic to Tiflis, Georgia. The shape is also more of a southern Caucasus, not thin Circassian style, even thorugh I've heard that shapsugian style should be more similar to this one...

P.S. I thought that Qama in Adighe is K'ama ? And I think that the word itself is originally Persian.

Tom Hyle:

Thank you, that's exactly what I thought. However after staying for the last couple of weeks in "post etching" on open air, the blade started to show another two sets of lines on each of the sides.

I'm now thinking if I want to really deeply etch fuller in search for a damascus twist.

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

Yannis · 17th January 2005, 10:12 AM

I got a present two days ago. An excelent russian book published 1995 dedicated to Caucasus weapons. I enjoy photos and draws (there are hundrends of them) but I cannot read a single word.

The book is "Weapons of the Caucasian nations" by E.Astvacaturyan.

Is anyone know a book like this in English or French?

Rivkin · 17th January 2005, 04:40 PM

Yeap, Astvatsaturjan is _the_ book on the subject.

The english edition is supposed to happen one day. There are some other books: Askabov, Lebedev etc., but they all fall very short of the depth of Astvatsaturjan's book.

If you want the chapters in Astvatsaturjan are:

1. Nothern Caucasus:
a. Circassia.
b. Osethia
c. Chechen and Ingush republics.

2.Dagestan.

3. TransCaucasia.

xakozh · 18th January 2005, 05:18 AM

[QUOTE=Rivkin]Xakozh:

........(Thank you, but the Blade has maker's stamps that are characteristic to Tiflis, Georgia.)

Georgia was the least influenced by Arabic and Islamic scripts because of it`s national christian heritage, north western Caucassians were more influenced by the Turkic culture and the use of Islamic calligraphy. That`s make me more inclined to think it`s non Georgian blacksmith workmanship.

.........(P.S. I thought that Qama in Adighe is K'ama ? And I think that the word itself is originally Persian.)

P.S. the letter Q in Circassian is glottal and the pronounciation is a slitlike opening between pharynxand windpipe.

Sincerely,
A. Xakozh

Rivkin · 18th January 2005, 05:49 AM

Prior to 1840 >70% of georgian kindjals were signed in arabic. Arabic signatures "Amal this" are indistinguishable in between of Farsi and Arabic.

Georgia was mostly a vassal of Ottomans and/or occupied by Iran, so seeing arabic signature is usual.

6th January 2005, 12:34 AM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Kindjal help needed Dear All, Here is my newest stuff - kindjal. Attached - overall view, lamination lines at the tip, straight lines (what is it ??) at the base, maker's marks. Can please someone help me with what kind of lamination/steel work it is ? Maker's mark I think reads "Amale Shda" - made by Shda ? Oh, those who know arabic please correct me ! Should I experiment with vinegar or FeCl on this one, or the pattern is already well seen. I also think it's really close to Astvatsaturjan page 355, on the bottom, third from the left (Transcaucasian marks). It's unusually big (which votes for Transcaucasian origin), however it's two screws rather than 3 screws mount, and extremely unusual hilt for a Georgian kindjal (one part, lightly colored wood). Looks like an old shape. I feel fantastic about this kindjal - it's heavy, 3 pounds, but it's so greatly balanced it moves very quickly, the only thing that gives away it's weight is that you feel tired after swinging it for a prolonged time. Attached Images

6th January 2005, 08:01 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	lamellar structure of blade From the photos, it appears as though your blade might be a tripartite construction. A central plate of high-carbon steel is sandwiched between two plates of iron or lower-carbon content steel. When the bevels are ground into the blade, the edge plate is exposed and when the blade is etched, appears as a narrow zone along each side. The gently undulating line that you see along the edge, a short distance from it, represents the demarcation between the plates. Often, the two "cheeks" on either side of the edge-plate may be laminates of iron/steel, or may fashioned from billets which are folded upon themselves, longitudinally, several times. In such case, a good polish and etch will reveal lengthwise striations between the exposed edge-plate and the central fullers. This type of tripartite construction is quite common in a number of different cultures: China, Japan and Korea, the Philippines, parts of Europe, and other places.

9th January 2005, 10:07 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Here is the blade after FeCl etching. I've seen this structure many time but what is it - I have no idea. I thought it's tri-partite, but it's actually formed by 4 (2 at each side from the fuller) separation lines. All of these lines are actually 1-2 mm thick. You can see on the picture 3 such lines - 1 very close to the edge at the foreground, and other two surrounding the fuller. Is it tri-partite+hamon ??? Attached Images

17th January 2005, 03:33 AM	#6
xakozh Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2	Hi Rivkin, This short size sword, the Kinjal is called " Qama" in Circassian is the blade that would replace the conventional sword in close arm combat. The steel is made in layers, manipulated in heat tempretures and soaked in water, over and over again to a degree where the blade bocomes so flexable and two sharp edged with two non-aligned groves to evacuate the stream of blood resulted from a stabbing in an arm fight. This is a true Circassian Dagger used by all north Caucassian nations which is made a signifying symbol in their national costume, you can see every where in the Caucasus whenever a national event takes place! A. Xakozh Last edited by xakozh; 17th January 2005 at 03:45 AM.

17th January 2005, 10:12 AM	#9
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Should I have to learn Russian? I got a present two days ago. An excelent russian book published 1995 dedicated to Caucasus weapons. I enjoy photos and draws (there are hundrends of them) but I cannot read a single word. The book is "Weapons of the Caucasian nations" by E.Astvacaturyan. Is anyone know a book like this in English or French? Last edited by Yannis; 17th January 2005 at 10:25 AM.

6th January 2005, 04:34 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you very much ! To be honest, I've never done etching before - should I dunk the whole blade minus hilt into some plastic bottle with vinegar solution or should I just cover the blade with a thin layer of solution ? The problem is that the blade is way bigger rather than every bottle I have, and I don't know where to get such a huge bottle (and it would be impossible to heat it). Thank you, K.Rivkin

6th January 2005, 05:06 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rivkin, It is a nice kinjal, although I now very litle about them, but before you start etching have a look here or on one of the older threads about the subject. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=45926 Good luck. Jens

17th January 2005, 04:58 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It looks like an inlaid edge. Presumeably the other line occurs on both sides?....I guess it's a 5 (macro) layer situation, although both outer layers look to be more or less similar layery/fibrous material (probably wrought iron).

17th January 2005, 06:40 AM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Xakozh: Thank you, but the Blade has maker's stamps that are characteristic to Tiflis, Georgia. The shape is also more of a southern Caucasus, not thin Circassian style, even thorugh I've heard that shapsugian style should be more similar to this one... P.S. I thought that Qama in Adighe is K'ama ? And I think that the word itself is originally Persian. Tom Hyle: Thank you, that's exactly what I thought. However after staying for the last couple of weeks in "post etching" on open air, the blade started to show another two sets of lines on each of the sides. I'm now thinking if I want to really deeply etch fuller in search for a damascus twist. Sincerely yours, K.Rivkin

17th January 2005, 04:40 PM	#10
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Yeap, Astvatsaturjan is _the_ book on the subject. The english edition is supposed to happen one day. There are some other books: Askabov, Lebedev etc., but they all fall very short of the depth of Astvatsaturjan's book. If you want the chapters in Astvatsaturjan are: 1. Nothern Caucasus: a. Circassia. b. Osethia c. Chechen and Ingush republics. 2.Dagestan. 3. TransCaucasia.

18th January 2005, 05:18 AM	#11
xakozh Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2	[QUOTE=Rivkin]Xakozh: ........(Thank you, but the Blade has maker's stamps that are characteristic to Tiflis, Georgia.) Georgia was the least influenced by Arabic and Islamic scripts because of it`s national christian heritage, north western Caucassians were more influenced by the Turkic culture and the use of Islamic calligraphy. That`s make me more inclined to think it`s non Georgian blacksmith workmanship. .........(P.S. I thought that Qama in Adighe is K'ama ? And I think that the word itself is originally Persian.) P.S. the letter Q in Circassian is glottal and the pronounciation is a slitlike opening between pharynxand windpipe. Sincerely, A. Xakozh

18th January 2005, 05:49 AM	#12
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Prior to 1840 >70% of georgian kindjals were signed in arabic. Arabic signatures "Amal this" are indistinguishable in between of Farsi and Arabic. Georgia was mostly a vassal of Ottomans and/or occupied by Iran, so seeing arabic signature is usual.