My Katar Collection

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kurt

Hi Rujeet ,
Here are some pictures with original 17th century gold work!
Kurt

Kurt, I see what looks like elephants with some other type of animal above the elephants, is that a gryphon or some other animal.

[Kurt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Kurt, I see what looks like elephants with some other type of animal above the elephants, is that a gryphon or some other animal.

Sorry I do not know, am not familiar in the Indian mythology.
Maybe someone can help.

[Runjeet Singh]

Hi Kurt/Eric,

Lovely katar, and thanks for sharing!

The gold koftgari on your Katar certainly has some age to it, and bears the hall marks of 17th or 18th work.

My theory would be that the katar is made in Tanjore/Srirangam, as is now popular belief, probably in the 16th or 17th Century, by local craftsmen. I believe the gold is the work of a Northern (Rajput/Punjabi) koftgari artist, probably in the 17th or 18th Century. The alternative is that a South Indian craftsman has been trained by Northern artisans.

The wonderful thing is the koftgari artist has incorporated pure South Indian design, in the form of the upstanding Yali's (Leogryphs) within the gold-work on the sidebars, as Eric has shown.

Another interesting comparison I would like to show you is of some silver koftagri from an 18th Century South Indian pata blade. The
small flowers within the twisting vine or stem, has a close resemblance.

Regards,
Runjeet

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

Hi Kurt/Eric,

Lovely katar, and thanks for sharing!

The gold koftgari on your Katar certainly has some age to it, and bears the hall marks of 17th or 18th work.

My theory would be that the katar is made in Tanjore/Srirangam, as is now popular belief, probably in the 16th or 17th Century, by local craftsmen. I believe the gold is the work of a Northern (Rajput/Punjabi) koftgari artist, probably in the 17th or 18th Century. The alternative is that a South Indian craftsman has been trained by Northern artisans.

The wonderful thing is the koftgari artist has incorporated pure South Indian design, in the form of the upstanding Yali's (Leogryphs) within the gold-work on the sidebars, as Eric has shown.

Another interesting comparison I would like to show you is of some silver koftagri from an 18th Century South Indian pata blade. The
small flowers within the twisting vine or stem, has a close resemblance.

Regards,
Runjeet

Runjeet, correct me if I am wrong but this katar seems to incorporate some of the same Southern features, Yali and small flowers along with very obvious peacocks and a couple of fish as well..

[Runjeet Singh]

Hi Eric,

Yes, totally South Indian in design. The Yali is predominantly a Hindu icon, and interestingly popular in Mysore, even during the reign of Islamic ruler Tipu Sultan. Although I don't believe he owned/commissioned any Yali related items himself, I feel some of the 'Tipu' tigers we see, have 'Yali' characteristics, obviously influenced by the Yali his artisans would see all around them. Of course the opposite is applicable, some Hindu weapons also mimic the use of the Tipu tigers with Yali's.

The Katar you show I believe is one from the Metropolitan museum, and employs a European blade. This 'shell' guard Katar (some with European blades) are a later evolution of the Katar that James started the discussion with.

Elgood, in his book, shows an interesting early picture from the stock of London dealer, Oldman, with a group of these Tanjore katars, which Elgood suggests have evolved in design over the years c.1575-1675.

Regards
Runjeet

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

Hi Eric,

Yes, totally South Indian in design. The Yali is predominantly a Hindu icon, and interestingly popular in Mysore, even during the reign of Islamic ruler Tipu Sultan. Although I don't believe he owned/commissioned any Yali related items himself, I feel some of the 'Tipu' tigers we see, have 'Yali' characteristics, obviously influenced by the Yali his artisans would see all around them. Of course the opposite is applicable, some Hindu weapons also mimic the use of the Tipu tigers with Yali's.

The Katar you show I believe is one from the Metropolitan museum, and employs a European blade. This 'shell' guard Katar (some with European blades) are a later evolution of the Katar that James started the discussion with.

Elgood, in his book, shows an interesting early picture from the stock of London dealer, Oldman, with a group of these Tanjore katars, which Elgood suggests have evolved in design over the years c.1575-1675.

Regards
Runjeet

Runjeet, you are correct, the image is from the excellent collection of the Met. The "shell" guard katar you mention from the Met's collection all seem to be South Indian from what I can see with my limited knowledge. This is my new project, editing their high definition images and making them available so they can actually be seen, especially the details. As you know, the Met has an excellent collection of katar.

George Stone donated some very ornate katar to the museum in 1935, and for the most part they are only available for viewing online except for the occasional image from the collection that gets included in a book like the well known peacock katar from Elgood's book. By re-editing the images and making them available online people will be able to see the incredible details and study them. I have been expanding the descriptions a bit as well.

I do not think anyone has re-edited these images, some of the katar in the Mets collection are truly impressive and they deserve to be properly desplayed in some menner I think. Here are a few examples, maybe a new thread is in order so as not to take away from James katar which by the way was excellently photographed in detail from many angles, everyone should post their items this way, it makes it much easier to study and comment on them.

[Runjeet Singh]

Great work Eric, I look forward to seeing more.

Regards
Runjeet

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

Great work Eric, I look forward to seeing more.

Regards
Runjeet

Runjeet, according to the Mets records they have 83 katar, 2 are on display and 64 have images that are available for viewing. I will have them all edited and online soon, I will post a link when I am through.

Since gold work was mentioned I thought I would post one of the two Met katars that is available for viewing, it has some incredible koftgari "The watered steel blade has a chiseled medallion at the top of both sides decorated with an inscription that reads: "Help from Allah and a speedy victory. So give the glad tidings to the believers" (Koran 61:13)", and there is a couple of mystery items, the first is labeled as a pata but it looks more like a type of katar.

[Jim McDougall]

Again, to return to James' katar from the original post, it is an austere but extremely attractive example of what I would consider a Vijayanagara katar, as Robert Elgood shows on p.145 ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004) fig.15.1 (#22). His example looks remarkably like the 'classic' 16th century style (as described by Elgood).

While Vijayanagara is actually situated in the Deccan (geographically central India) it is included categorically among Tanjore in the classification of 'southern' type katars (usually those with 'hoods' or covered handguards).

This is probably one of the most perplexing issues in the study of Indian (in fact often ethnographic in general) arms, which is that for purposes of classification, broad terms such as southern or northern are typically less than useful.
As seen here, deeper look into characteristics, motif and blade features are best noted and used to qualify the weapon's classification.

We know that the triangular blade and striated ribs are characteristic of Vijayanagara edged weapons of 16th c., as is the 'hooded' guard on the katar. By the 17th century, cut down European sword blades began to come into India and began to be used regularly on katars.

It is noted that austerity in style was adopted by the Hindu Royal Court at Hampi (near Vijayangara) in the mid 16th century, in accord with that of Muslim architecture. This apparently was applied in hilt decoration as well,and on these hooded katars.

It does seem possible that this katar may indeed be of these Vijayangara regions in this period, and turning to the tree of life which is of Hindu association, as well as the shellguard referred to as 'turtle shell'.
The turtle is Kurma, 2nd incarnation of Vishnu (Elgood,15.21).

Turning to our peacocks, their presence is probably a reference to Karttikeya, god of war and son of Siva. Siva, under the name Virupaksha is the family deity of the Vijayanagara rayas.

It seems possible that along with the austerity of decoration and the demeanor of this katar, the ultra stylization of the peacocks may fall into place with the adoption of Muslim style in these regions in the 16th .

This would be an assessment of this katar strictly from these photos, and of course there is always a chance it may indeed be a later product following these earlier traditions. However, simply looking at these features, these are the likely indicators of what the weapon appears to be.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Again, to return to James' katar from the original post, it is an austere but extremely attractive example of what I would consider a Vijayanagara katar, as Robert Elgood shows on p.145 ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004) fig.15.1 (#22). His example looks remarkably like the 'classic' 16th century style (as described by Elgood).

While Vijayanagara is actually situated in the Deccan (geographically central India) it is included categorically among Tanjore in the classification of 'southern' type katars (usually those with 'hoods' or covered handguards).

This is probably one of the most perplexing issues in the study of Indian (in fact often ethnographic in general) arms, which is that for purposes of classification, broad terms such as southern or northern are typically less than useful.
As seen here, deeper look into characteristics, motif and blade features are best noted and used to qualify the weapon's classification.

We know that the triangular blade and striated ribs are characteristic of Vijayanagara edged weapons of 16th c., as is the 'hooded' guard on the katar. By the 17th century, cut down European sword blades began to come into India and began to be used regularly on katars.

It is noted that austerity in style was adopted by the Hindu Royal Court at Hampi (near Vijayangara) in the mid 16th century, in accord with that of Muslim architecture. This apparently was applied in hilt decoration as well,and on these hooded katars.

It does seem possible that this katar may indeed be of these Vijayangara regions in this period, and turning to the tree of life which is of Hindu association, as well as the shellguard referred to as 'turtle shell'.
The turtle is Kurma, 2nd incarnation of Vishnu (Elgood,15.21).

Turning to our peacocks, their presence is probably a reference to Karttikeya, god of war and son of Siva. Siva, under the name Virupaksha is the family deity of the Vijayanagara rayas.

It seems possible that along with the austerity of decoration and the demeanor of this katar, the ultra stylization of the peacocks may fall into place with the adoption of Muslim style in these regions in the 16th .

This would be an assessment of this katar strictly from these photos, and of course there is always a chance it may indeed be a later product following these earlier traditions. However, simply looking at these features, these are the likely indicators of what the weapon appears to be.

Salaams Jim, et al.
Thank you for keeping the thread in focus.
The study of this dagger form (and I am never sure what their actual accurate name is...) is indeed fascinating and has caused me to dive for my few Indian books on Arms 'n armour... The design pattern including Yali and the Peacock feather design are used all over the Indian sphere of ethnographic arms...and spill over from their dominant abode in Southern India to Sri Lanka commonly seen on the Kastane and other weapons. This is an excellent sidearm or secondary armament that I thought were called Lion Knives...or punch daggers though the term Kattar is well understood to reflect this description. It is commonly understood that these are formed from broken swords...though there must be many that were made as new, no?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

There seem to be some confusion here.
Some katar blades were made form broken sword blades, while others were made from broken down sword blades. To this comes that many sword blades, and dagger blade for that matter were melted down and used for new blades - even old nail were used.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

There seem to be some confusion here.
Some katar blades were made form broken sword blades, while others were made from broken down sword blades. To this comes that many sword blades, and dagger blade for that matter were melted down and used for new blades - even old nail were used.

Salaams Jens Nordlunde and thank you for clearing that matter up.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

warning: barely related thread veer:

peacocks are ANNOYING, irritating birds!

their scream is one of the loudest things a bird can produce, on a par with a howler monkey. a famiy near me in glucestersire had two. they wander where they feel like, and make a rooster sound positively mute and innocuous. they also can be agressive and reguarly chase people, especially children.

peahens, however are not so misbehaved. recent studies have also shown that peahens, sensibly, do NOT choose a mate based on his tail display.

peacocks are edible tho

we now return you to the regularly scheduled thread.