Why and What We Collect--A Tale of Two Barung

[Ian]

Tim Simmons touched on something a short while back when discussing a newly acquired Native American stone axe. He got me thinking about why and what we collect in terms of weapons and related items. Many of us collect a diverse range of things but we usually have a particular philosophy about what we collect: old versus recently made; everyday weapons versus ceremonial/decorative pieces; a particular people or culture; historically important pieces; and so on.

To start some discussion on this, I noticed that two fairly ordinary Moro barung finished on our favorite online auction site over the weekend. This is a well-described weapon and everyday tool mostly used by Moros of the Sulu Archipelago, and many who visit this site are familiar with it even if their main interests lie elsewhere. I have posted a few of the sellers’ pictures for each item below.

Item A is an older styled barung, in the manner of those made in the late 18th and 19th C. It has the typical leaf-shaped blade, a simple kakatua hilt gracefully carved, and a plain silver punto. The blade has not been etched, but almost certainly it is laminated. This sword is accompanied by a typical older style scabbard, which is flat on both sides and has a small amount of carving to the throat and toe. One “wing” of the throat has broken off.

In short, it is a late 18th or early 19th C Moro barung.

ITEM A







Item B is a later version of a Moro barung from the same general area. The blade is a little longer and narrower, the kakatua is more elaborately ornamented and has a “crest” sprouting from the back of the hilt, and a silver punto with several bands of plaited material overlying the grip. The beak of the kakatua shows some significant chipping and the wooden hilt shows several cracks. The blade has been etched and is laminated. The sheath has a central ridge running down the front of the scabbard and is almost entirely wrapped with thin rattan; the throat and toe of the scabbard are quite ornately carved with okir designs and may once have been filled with lime.

The overall appearance of this barung and its scabbard would suggest that it was made post WWII (see, for example, R. Cato, Moro Swords, Graham Brash: Singapore, 1996, pp. 43-44)

ITEM B







Which brings me to the point of this post. If you were to collect barung, which of these would you purchase and which one do you believe to be more valuable? Some points to consider here are the respective ages of the two pieces, the general condition of each piece, eye appeal and the degree/quality of ornamentation. With respect to the quality of the materials (steel, wood, etc.), these appear roughly the same for each.

Would you be surprised if I told you that Item B sold for 55% more than the cost of Item A?

So, just what do you value in collecting arms?

Ian

[Andrew]

My personal preference would be the older example, Ian. But I have been known to be seduced by a youthful, pretty face...

[VANDOO]

I WOULD SAY ITEM #1 MAY OR MAY NOT BE OLDER BUT THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS IN FORM AND SIZE. THE DIFFERENCES MAY BE MORE BECAUSE OF DIFFERENT REGIONS AND GROUPS THAN OF AGE. #1 IS THE MORE RARE FORM AS THE OTHER FORM IS ENCOUNTERED MORE OFTEN SO PERHAPS IS THE MORE DESIRABLE TO COLLECT. THE SCABBARD LOOKS TO BE A FORM FROM A DIFFERENT ISLAND THAN ITEM #2.
#2 IS OF A OLDER FORM OF ITS TYPE, ITS FORM AND CONSTRUCTION MAKES ME SUSPECT PRE-WW2 NOT POST. POST WW2 OFTEN HAS WIDER STRIPS OF FIBER WRAP ON THE SCABBARD AND ALUMINUM IS A MORE COMMON FERRULE AND BANDING MATERIAL. THE WORN BANDS ON THE GRIP ARE A OLDER CHARACTERISTIC TOO.
IN THE END WHO KNOWS WITHOUT GOOD PROVENANCE. AS TO THE QUESTION WHICH WOULD I CHOOSE ? I AM SOMEWHAT FICKLE AND GO WITH WHAT ATTRACTS ME MOST ON MAKING SUCH A SELECTION, SO WITH BOTH ITEMS IN HAND IT COULD GO EITHER WAY.
JUST FROM PICTURES IF PRICES WERE COMPARABLE SAY ON EBAY I WOULD LIKELY GO WITH #1 AS I DON'T HAVE ONE LIKE IT.

[Sajen]

Very good topic! I would have taken the barong A, a very good example of an older form and when I would have more money I certainly would have given a bid (special by the price it was gone).
BTW, I have had recently similar thoughts for a thread and will come back later to this matter.

Regards,
Detlef

[spiral]

From the pics. the second item would I guess be being sold being sold by an experienced professional arms dealer very used to years of trading on ebay......

For many possible reasons such sellers usually have more bidders... & any early bidders bids are quickly maxed out, meaning to win the item you have to pay more.

Its not just about the item, its about the salesmanship & strategy used to gain maximum return, I suspect.

spiral

[Royston]

I am that sad, pathetic creature known as a collector or even an addict. It would have to be BOTH.

[Rick]

Yes, living life saddled with the collecting gene can be a blessing and a curse .
If only I had stuck with just collecting edged weapons ...


Too late now .

edit:
I would've picked the older simpler barung .

[Maurice]

I would go for A.
That B went for more as 55% is because the buyer didn't do his homework to well before buying? (as we all did and still do once in a while).

[David]

I also would pick the older barung ("A"), but keep in mind that this wasn't an either/or choice for the buyers of these weapons. They were not given a choice of one weapon OR the other. These auctions took place separately, one at a time. The reasons "B" sold for more could be many. Sometimes a bidding war gets crazy. Sometimes we take a shine to something and decide that we want it even if the price runs too high. That "B" sold for 55% more does not say that given the chose, more of those bidders wouldn't have chosen "A" over "B".

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

#2 IS OF A OLDER FORM OF ITS TYPE, ITS FORM AND CONSTRUCTION MAKES ME SUSPECT PRE-WW2 NOT POST. POST WW2 OFTEN HAS WIDER STRIPS OF FIBER WRAP ON THE SCABBARD AND ALUMINUM IS A MORE COMMON FERRULE AND BANDING MATERIAL. THE WORN BANDS ON THE GRIP ARE A OLDER CHARACTERISTIC TOO.

Agree, this barung don't look like a post WWII barung to my eyes.
Look for example this one from my collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=barong

[Ian]

As expected, the responses so far have been varied and somewhat in favor of the older, and perhaps more refined, example. However, I'm also hearing some compulsive/impulsive urges to collecting that I think probably infect all of us from time to time. Of course, those who visit this site and comment are probably the most hopelessly addicted cases anyway.

While I did not mean this thread to be about the technical aspects of the barung, but rather to use the two examples shown as a talking point about collecting, I will answer Barry's and Detlef's points about the age of Item 2. Robert Cato's book is a useful guide in this regard. He notes:

"Usually only the bottom third of antique tagub [scabbards] were wrapped with cane bindings. It appears that the Sulus altered this practice around the time of the Second World War, when they began to wrap their scabbards from top to bottom." (R. Cato, op. cit., p. 44)

If we look at the pictures of the tagub of Item 2, note the almost complete wrapping of the scabbard with fine strands of cane. (I think it is likely that this one was totally wrapped at one time and has lost some of the wrapping.) This would place it WWII or later. Also, the winding of fine cane around the scabbard in this manner seemed to become much more prevalent post-WWII, compared with plaited strands or somewhat wider cane strips on earlier pieces. However, the point noted by Cato seems to be the best indicator of period for the tagub.

Ian.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by David

I also would pick the older barung ("A"), but keep in mind that this wasn't an either/or choice for the buyers of these weapons. They were not given a choice of one weapon OR the other. These auctions took place separately, one at a time. The reasons "B" sold for more could be many. Sometimes a bidding war gets crazy. Sometimes we take a shine to something and decide that we want it even if the price runs too high. That "B" sold for 55% more does not say that given the chose, more of those bidders wouldn't have chosen "A" over "B".

Absolutely correct David. This was not an either/or decision for the two buyers and the fact that the newer one went for more is probably explained by many factors. However, as collectors we do have some experience of how much various items should sell for, and what we are willing to pay. To what extent price factors into our decisions is something we all have to grapple with to some degree--there are few collectors with unlimited budgets.

I'm more concerned, though, with learning what people value in their collecting pursuits. I had a friend whom I met on eBay years ago who was determined to have one of every edged weapon he could find, new and old, high end and low end. He wanted the whole spectrum--European, Asian, Islamic, Pacific, etc. I have not seen him on eBay for several years, so perhaps he ran out of money or his wife said enough. In any case, he seemed at one end of the spectrum of collectors.

Why and what we collect seems a very personal statement of who we each are. Perhaps the question is too personal for some people to respond here. But maybe there are some brave souls who will venture more of their thoughts.

Ian.

[Battara]

You are right Ian when you day that some of us collect other things too.

My major focus in the past several years, however, have been on Filipino antique bladed weaponry.

I collect mainly for these reasons:

1. Heritage - I am half Filipino and my great-grandfather was a member of the Katipunan (he killed about 20 Spanish before he fled for his life). These weapons give me some link to my past and heritage.

2. History - these are pieces of history in our hands.

3. Works of art - since folks in the Philippines (and elsewhere) didn't create paintings, their medium was focused mostly on weaponry (ivory, gold, silver, etc). It's hard to hold a painting in my hand.

4. Warrior culture - weapons like these speak to the warrior spirit within me, symbols of the fight for what is important in life (besides I can defend myself and our home with these).

5. There is a spiritual aspect to these - whether they have talismans on them or the fact that there is a belief that a spirit of the weapon resides in the blade, death and struggle in life are spiritual issues at minimum. As a minister (one of very few who get into this stuff) I feel and sense this aspect in these pieces. Along with this, my martial arts are a part of my spirituality.

6. There is a beauty not just in the weapon itself but in the way it was used and wielded. The movement of the human body in fighting is a dance in itself. In fact several cultures, including those in the Philippines, have dances with weapons in hand as vital aspects of the movement.

I hope I wasn't boring anyone, but Ian you asked.........

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by Ian

As expected, the responses so far have been varied and somewhat in favor of the older, and perhaps more refined, example. However, I'm also hearing some compulsive/impulsive urges to collecting that I think probably infect all of us from time to time. Of course, those who visit this site and comment are probably the most hopelessly addicted cases anyway.

While I did not mean this thread to be about the technical aspects of the barung, but rather to use the two examples shown as a talking point about collecting, I will answer Barry's and Detlef's points about the age of Item 2. Robert Cato's book is a useful guide in this regard. He notes:

"Usually only the bottom third of antique tagub [scabbards] were wrapped with cane bindings. It appears that the Sulus altered this practice around the time of the Second World War, when they began to wrap their scabbards from top to bottom." (R. Cato, op. cit., p. 44)

If we look at the pictures of the tagub of Item 2, note the almost complete wrapping of the scabbard with fine strands of cane. (I think it is likely that this one was totally wrapped at one time and has lost some of the wrapping.) This would place it WWII or later. Also, the winding of fine cane around the scabbard in this manner seemed to become much more prevalent post-WWII, compared with plaited strands or somewhat wider cane strips on earlier pieces. However, the point noted by Cato seems to be the best indicator of period for the tagub.

Ian.

Ian,

I wouldn't date the entire sword based solely on the scabbard. It could be a working life replacement. I believe, as Vandoo and Sajen do, that the barong itself is older than WW2.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Ian,

I wouldn't date the entire sword based solely on the scabbard. It could be a working life replacement. I believe, as Vandoo and Sajen do, that the barong itself is older than WW2.

Rick:

You are absolutely correct in noting that the barung, taken by itself, could possibly date from 1920-1930. This is the period to which Cato assigns the emergence of the kakatua style on Item 2. That style of kakatua is still being made. And yes, it is possible that the tagub could be a replacement. If so, it appears to be an old replacement.

That said, I prefer to deal with the data at hand. I have no reason to believe that the tagub has been replaced; the amount of wear on the scabbard seems commensurate with the hilt, and I think both are likely original to the blade. When a piece has seen some heavy action, as this one may well have, I don't think appearances alone are helpful in judging age. Rather, I prefer to look at the available evidence, as outlined in the original post of this thread.

Having made my case for what I think these two barung represent, I won't elaborate any further. Feel free to disagree. But please tell me also your collecting philosophy.

Ian.

[Rick]

I'd rather have one really good example of something than a few or several of lesser workmanship or condition .

Sometimes it works out .

[RSWORD]

Hi Ian,

Personally I would date the barong slightly earlier but hey we are only talking 10-20 years and in the case of the piece in question a rather insignificant difference. I am digressing from the original question and am happy to provide my own point of view on my collecting philosophy.

For me, it has been a journey that seems ever evolving. I was quite young when I first started and I simply thought they were cool. Didn't really know anything about those first pieces but they were cool. I have always been a collector and treasure hunter. It started with comics and baseball cards and excursions into my grandmothers attic. So I think some of that was carrying over into my young adult years. So after starting out with 4-5 pieces that I knew absolutely nothing about I ran across a book on the subject. Lo and behold one of my early swords was in the book. How cool was that! That sparked a desire to learn more so over the next decade or so I started going to shows, getting more books, meeting more collectors and my knowledge and more importantly my appreciation for these objects began to grow. Herein lies the trap. The more I learn the more I appreciate. The more I appreciate the more fun the treasure hunt. The occasional great buy feeds the treasure hunt to do it again. So again, I am in a damn perpetual cycle of hunting, acquiring and appreciating these objects. Through research on these items I have learned more about history and other cultures than I ever did in school. So that speaks a bit about how I got here. As far as a collecting philosophy I don't have one. I tend to gravitate towards certain regions or style of weapons so I have never been able to narrow the focus to one thing. If something catches my eye and I have the means at that time to get it then that is what I do. My philosophy is to fully learn and appreciate these ethnographic objects for their historical significance, their cultural significance, their artistic significance and finally their quality of craftsmanship. Doing that feeds that inner collector child except instead of Fantastic Four, Thor, Avengers and the Justice League it's Tibetan Ke Tri, Ottoman shamshir, Moro Kalis and Indian Tulwar. I am interested in seeing where this evolves for me in 20 years. I have a feeling the vicious cycle will continue!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Rick

I'd rather have one really good example of something than a few or several of lesser workmanship or condition .

Sometimes it works out .

I wouldn't have bought either item for these reasons...patience ;-)

Or at least, complete, without loss or major flaws and aspects that can be restored...

[Rick]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

I wouldn't have bought either item for these reasons...patience ;-)

Or at least, complete, without loss or major flaws and aspects that can be restored...

Yeh, and finding stuff like that on the ground is getting scarcer and harder .

[A. G. Maisey]

Although my life-long passion has been the keris, I do collect other things as well, other weaponry of course, but also paper weights, carvings in various mediums, Australian rural paintings, pocket knives, cameras, South East Asian ethnographica, precious and semi precious stones, watches, books, bicycles and so on and so on and so on.

When it comes right down to it, I collect things that I like, I'm the person who has to live with what I buy, and I do not need to satisfy anybody but myself.

For instance, my two favourite paper weight types are at opposite ends of the spectrum:- end-of-day weights, and flower weights, especially flower weights with filigree work. I'll buy any other weights that might appeal to me on any particular day also. I understand the quality indicators in paper weights, and I understand the hierarchy of the various makers, but these things don't influence me when I buy, I buy what I like. I do not buy weights for investment, nor with any intention to resell, I buy because I like looking at them and handling them.

Now, if I consider the things that influence me to buy keris, in fact, my way of buying is not much different to my way of buying paper weights:- I buy those keris that I like. It wasn't always thus, when I began to collect keris I bought every keris I found and that I could afford to buy. By age 30 I finished up with one hell of a lot of keris that I gradually decreased in number over the next 10 or 12 years. But I did learn a lot from that early collection. For about the last 30 or so years my keris collecting has been much more selective, but it is still governed by the principle of buying what I like.

So, my collecting habits are very subjective. I do not collect keris based on rarity, nor on quality, nor on artistic merit, nor on any other consistent, logically defensible factor.

However, it would probably be fair to say that my lengthy involvement with keris collecting does seem to dictate that the keris that I like are almost invariably quite desirable in one way or another, even if it is sometimes necessary to point out to a fellow collector why I find a particular piece desirable.

Desirability in anything is not always obvious, nor is it governed by any single consistent factor.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, my collecting habits are very subjective. I do not collect keris based on rarity, nor on quality, nor on artistic merit, nor on any other consistent, logically defensible factor.

I am curios, as you are a serious and experienced collector; Where does condition, completeness, faults and flaws sit with you in the wide scope of your collections? I can appreciate a Keris blade may be acquired without further dress but do you like to buy bikes with missing wheels or paperweights with breaks and flaws?

[A. G. Maisey]

As I have said, for me, it is subjective.

All the things I collect I have very long experience with. Because of this there are various factors that can effect my decision to buy.

When I was much less experienced with keris I used to focus on just the fact that it was a keris, this was when I was a kid of 12 or 14 years old, then later, in my twenties and thirties I was looking for the rare and unusual; after I gained knowledge of how quality is assessed in a keris I focussed on quality, and sought keris of the very best quality I could afford.

All these stages in my collecting of keris have added to the way I now look at a keris, so each appraisal of a keris becomes subjective, although that subjectivity is guided, often intuitively guided, by very long objective experience.

Will I buy a very badly damaged keris that may appear to be no more than junk?

Yes. Provided it has a feature that makes it worthy of study, or it is worth putting time into to restore. My core collection contains not only keris with six figure values, but also keris that even very experienced internationally known collectors have needed guidance before they were able to understand the value of the piece. In my opinion this type of in depth study is what is required to gain true knowledge.

Will I buy a paperweight with chips or flaws?

Yes.

For similar reasons that apply to my keris collecting:- to gain knowledge.

I do have some very good weights, but the knowledge that has permitted me to acquire those weights has come from the study of weights that are less perfect.


Bicycles?

I started to race when I was 16 and I finally gave it away for good when I was 42.

I still ride a bike. Mostly a mountain bike on bush tracks, but I have a total of 10 or 12 bikes 3 or 4 of which get used constantly --- mountain bike, fixie, road bike. I need to keep the number down to about ten because I don't have the space to keep any more, so I am always selling one or buying one.

Some of the nicest bikes I've owned have come from the local rubbish tip. I bought one a couple of weeks ago that I sold yesterday to my exercise physiologist.

This bike is a 1960's Peugeot, Nervex Professional lugs, all second string competition components from the 1960's, when I bought it I paid $10. It looked like pure crap, filthy, chain rusted solid, lousy paint job, wheels out of true. A real mess. It took me a couple of days and about $60 to turn it into a very classy fixie. It’s a 23" square frame, which is far too big for me, otherwise I would have kept it, instead of passing it on to somebody else.

Would I buy a bike with missing wheels?

Oh yes, most definitely. I'd buy a bike with missing or broken anything, provided it was good bike and I could fix it.

I enjoy the process of fixing.

As I said in my previous post:-

"Desirability in anything is not always obvious, nor is it governed by any single consistent factor."

[Battara]

I hear you Alan, I hear you......

[Sajen]

Why I collect is difficult to say, I've collect already when I was a very young boy. I have collect nearly all what appealed my eyes or what I find interesting, stamps, coins, papermoney, paperweights (hi Alan ), old tins and many more. By my first trip to Java I have bought my first keris handle which is still in my collection. And I get contact in a hotel in Malang with a very knowledge person from which I learned the most I know today and from which I get my first two keris. Later my interest extended to other weapons from Indonesia. And again later I found the way to this forum and my interest extended also to the weapons from the Philippines.
Of course I like high end pieces but my limited financial situation don't allow me to buy every time this pieces for prices which are adequate for this pieces. So I also can enjoy lower end pieces. And I like to buy imperfect pieces and enjoy to bring them back to old glory.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, coins too for me.

In fact that was probably my first collection when I was only a little kid, maybe 4 years old, certainly before I went to school.

In later years I built a pretty decent collection of Indian hand struck coins, and a good collection of Indonesian currency from the time Indonesia became an independent nation.

Haven't added much in recent years, principally because of the cost and rarity of the hand strucks.

Would I buy a defective hand struck coin?

No, probably not, reason being that I don't know much about these, I'm not a dedicated collector of coins, and I'm not all that keen on learning much about them. They're just something I like.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... In later years I built a pretty decent collection of Indian hand struck coins ...

Sorry to interrupt the conversation, Alan ...
Are you referring to this type of coins ?
These are Karshapanas of the Maurya Dinasty (300 BC), allegedly found in the Elephanta Island.
... But i learnt they are not that rare

.

[A. G. Maisey]

They may not be rare, but I haven't seen them.

However, yes, more or less like that, but mine are much later. I've got a few quite elderly coins, but these are not Indian.

I'll put up a pic or two as soon as I get a chance.

[ariel]

Going to the extreme, which one would you buy: old, beat up khanda with nick-ed edges and simple Old Indian hilt or a modern Rajastani replica with modern damascus blade and a hilt covered in golden decorations?

Both are genuine Indian, both reflect centuries-old tradition, but... the lavish example has no magic of history behind it. It has no tales to tell.

I go for the simple and old examples.
My wife once asked me whether I thought that some.. at least some... of my sword actually, you know.... KILLED people?
Well, - I said, - I hope so!

Otherwise, they would not be weapons. Wall hangers, no more. No amount of decoration, Kirk Narduban , exotic pamor, rare wood, shiny blade or perfect fit of the scabbard or a handle can substitute for the aura of history.


This is my personal view, and I defininitely don't want to impose my philosophy on anybody. Please, have your rich, decorated, pristine things. I shall be only glad to go for the old, often beat up and simple fighting examples. To each his own.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

...No amount of decoration, Kirk Narduban , exotic pamor, rare wood, shiny blade or perfect fit of the scabbard or a handle can substitute for the aura of history.
...

Amen
I don't collect this kind of weapons, but the reasoning is the same for any area.
I also take it that antiquity prevails over any other attributes.

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are a couple pics of pages from my coin album, pretty typical of the rest of it, a mixture of coins from far away places and mostly historic, with a weighting towards Indian hand strucks.

Not much that is of any real value, not much that is really old. But all a bit exotic.