Luzon bolo (itak?) for comment

Sajen · 1st June 2014, 03:28 PM

Have some time ago acquired this Luzon bolo, I think it's a Tagalog itak, very thick blade (12 mm near the handle), kamagong handle and nice file work at the ricasso. Sword is 61 cm long and think that it is from the second half of 19th century. Two pictures show it side by side with an other itak from my collection for comparison.
Your comments are very welcome!

kronckew · 1st June 2014, 05:38 PM

nice. looks like a slender barong.

Sajen · 1st June 2014, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

nice. looks like a slender barong.

Thank you!

Yes, the blade has a look like a slender barong blade. I have a third one, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=itak

I really like this old Tagalog itaks with rectangular ricasso. This could be IMHO a sign of age. They are all three very good worked and feel very good in hand.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 3rd June 2014, 07:25 PM

No other comments?

Special I would like to know if I am correct that it is a Tagalog itak. And any thoughts about my theory that this thick rectangular ricassos a sign of older examples.

Battara · 3rd June 2014, 09:38 PM

Oh I would think that it is Tagalog based on the blade shape.

Sajen · 3rd June 2014, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh I would think that it is Tagalog based on the blade shape.

Thank you very much for confirming my guess!

Do you would agree also about the ricasso, i.e. that this is only found by old blades?

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 8th June 2014, 08:14 AM

I will hesitantly say yes, so far. However, I would need to look at some WWII examples to be sure.

Sajen · 8th June 2014, 10:45 AM

Thank you Jose. This one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=itak Spunjer sold some time ago (nice one, see it to late and was sold already) is a later one, still have this form of ricasso but not distinct anymore.
I think that Robert have seen and handled much more Tagalog itak, would be interested what he think about this theory.

Regards,
Detlef

Robert · 8th June 2014, 10:29 PM

Hello Detlef, I was just getting ready to make a comment on your very nice new addition to your collection when I read your last remarks about the file work on the ricasso. I have to admit that I am a little hesitant to agree that this is only seen on older examples of these bolos as I have seen some that were purportedly of WWII manufacture with these markings as well as others supposedly brought back from the Spanish American and Moro wars that did not. What you suggest might very well prove to be true, but more examples that have verifiable provenance would be very helpful in proving your theory. I do however think that these marking were more prevalent on the older examples than on the later ones but as to why I cannot give you a definate answer. It could have been the extra cost to the owner, or that (like many other things) they just went out of style and slowly started to disappear altogether. Anyway, my congratulations to you on your new addition.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 8th June 2014, 10:49 PM

Hello Robert,

thank you for comment!

Now, when you mentioned it, there are also older blades without this ricasso and file work.

So you are correct that this can't be a sign of age. BTW, there are also Visayan blades with similar worked ricasso.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 2nd July 2014, 12:11 PM

Sajen:

This is my first post in several years--illness and work have kept me sidelined and away from this board, but I hope to be back here more frequently.

Nice knife. I think a more precise term for this knife might be Luzon matulis (matulis = "pointed") rather than the more general term of itak which simply means bolo or knife. I'm not a Tagalog native speaker, but that's what I've gleaned over the years from people who are.

As to the age of this knife, that's hard to say. Certainly it was a style of knife used by the katipuneros during the uprising against Spain in the late 19th C, and is still being made today. Where it was made on Luzon is even harder to say--could be within the area from Ilocos norte down to Batangas.

As for the vertical marks at the forte, I'm afraid they are not helpful in determining age.

Ian.

Battara · 2nd July 2014, 04:31 PM

WELCOME BACK IAN!

Glad you are back with us. Been too long.

I'm curious, what indicates this may be Ilokano?

Sajen · 2nd July 2014, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Sajen:

This is my first post in several years--illness and work have kept me sidelined and away from this board, but I hope to be back here more frequently.

Nice knife. I think a more precise term for this knife might be Luzon matulis (matulis = "pointed") rather than the more general term of itak which simply means bolo or knife. I'm not a Tagalog native speaker, but that's what I've gleaned over the years from people who are.

As to the age of this knife, that's hard to say. Certainly it was a style of knife used by the katipuneros during the uprising against Spain in the late 19th C, and is still being made today. Where it was made on Luzon is even harder to say--could be within the area from Ilocos norte down to Batangas.

As for the vertical marks at the forte, I'm afraid they are not helpful in determining age.

Ian.

Welcome back on board Ian!

Hope that your health is good again.

Thank you for your thoughts about this blade; I would call it sword instead of knife, the length is 24 inch, the blade is nearly 1/2 inch thick near the handle.
When I understand you correct it would be called matulis when it is a Tagalog blade. But wouldn't it be called different when it is a Ilocano or a Batangas sword?

Regards,
Detlef

David · 2nd July 2014, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

This is my first post in several years--

Great to see you are back Ian!

Robert · 2nd July 2014, 10:11 PM

Yes, Welcome back Ian. It is great to see you posting again.

Best,
Robert

Ian · 3rd July 2014, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Welcome back on board Ian!

Hope that your health is good again.

Thank you for your thoughts about this blade; I would call it sword instead of knife, the length is 24 inch, the blade is nearly 1/2 inch thick near the handle.
When I understand you correct it would be called matulis when it is a Tagalog blade. But wouldn't it be called different when it is a Ilocano or a Batangas sword?

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detleff:

Batangas is a predominantly Tagalog province, so Tagalog is the dominant local dialect. Ilocano is a different language and I do not know the equivalent term there.

Ian.

Ian · 3rd July 2014, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

WELCOME BACK IAN!

Glad you are back with us. Been too long.

I'm curious, what indicates this may be Ilokano?

Thanks Jose. It's good to be back and to have the time to think of swords again.

Ilocano knives and swords are not particularly distinctive, but I have a few well provenanced ones that show the rather graceful contours to the full tang hilt that is exhibited by the original subject of this thread as wella s the small "notch" to the cutting edge just at the ricasso. Not saying these are definitive signs of Ilocano work, but they are consistent with the identified pieces I have had in the past.

Ian.

Ian · 3rd July 2014, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Great to see you are back Ian!

Thank you David. It's good to be thinking about edged weapons again.

Ian.

Ian · 3rd July 2014, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Great to see you are back Ian!

Thank you David. It's good to be thinking about edged weapons again.

Ian.

Sajen · 3rd July 2014, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Detleff:

Batangas is a predominantly Tagalog province, so Tagalog is the dominant local dialect. Ilocano is a different language and I do not know the equivalent term there.

Ian.

Thank you Ian!

Battara · 4th July 2014, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Ilocano knives and swords are not particularly distinctive, but I have a few well provenanced ones that show the rather graceful contours to the full tang hilt that is exhibited by the original subject of this thread as wella s the small "notch" to the cutting edge just at the ricasso. Not saying these are definitive signs of Ilocano work, but they are consistent with the identified pieces I have had in the past.

Ian.

Thanks Ian. I will only add that some Ilokano pieces have wavy blades and the tang goes all the way through the hilt.

On the matter of the notch near the hilt, I have a couple of Tagalog bolos that also have this notch.

kai · 4th July 2014, 04:59 PM

Hey, Ian - great to have you back!

That's been way too many years, indeed...

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 6th July 2014, 02:15 PM

not to hijack your post Sajen, but it's so refreshing to see Ian back!!! welcome back, my friend!!! nice to see your posts here again

Sajen · 6th July 2014, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

not to hijack your post Sajen, but it's so refreshing to see Ian back!!! welcome back, my friend!!! nice to see your posts here again

No problem!

Ian · 6th July 2014, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hey, Ian - great to have you back!

That's been way too many years, indeed...

Regards,
Kai

Thank you Kai. It has been quite a while.

Ian.

Ian · 6th July 2014, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

not to hijack your post Sajen, but it's so refreshing to see Ian back!!! welcome back, my friend!!! nice to see your posts here again

Thanks Spunjer. It's good to renew acquaintances again with all my old buddies. Sorry to turn this post into a hpmecoming event Detlef.

Ian

Sajen · 6th July 2014, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Sorry to turn this post into a hpmecoming event Detlef.

Ian

Really no problem Ian!

At least it was this thread you choice for your first comment after this long time!

Regards,
Detlef

1st June 2014, 03:28 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Luzon bolo (itak?) for comment Have some time ago acquired this Luzon bolo, I think it's a Tagalog itak, very thick blade (12 mm near the handle), kamagong handle and nice file work at the ricasso. Sword is 61 cm long and think that it is from the second half of 19th century. Two pictures show it side by side with an other itak from my collection for comparison. Your comments are very welcome! Attached Images

3rd June 2014, 07:25 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	No other comments? Special I would like to know if I am correct that it is a Tagalog itak. And any thoughts about my theory that this thick rectangular ricassos a sign of older examples. Attached Images

2nd July 2014, 12:11 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Luzon matulis Sajen: This is my first post in several years--illness and work have kept me sidelined and away from this board, but I hope to be back here more frequently. Nice knife. I think a more precise term for this knife might be Luzon matulis (matulis = "pointed") rather than the more general term of itak which simply means bolo or knife. I'm not a Tagalog native speaker, but that's what I've gleaned over the years from people who are. As to the age of this knife, that's hard to say. Certainly it was a style of knife used by the katipuneros during the uprising against Spain in the late 19th C, and is still being made today. Where it was made on Luzon is even harder to say--could be within the area from Ilocos norte down to Batangas. As for the vertical marks at the forte, I'm afraid they are not helpful in determining age. Ian.

4th July 2014, 04:59 PM	#22
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	drumroll... Hey, Ian - great to have you back! That's been way too many years, indeed... Regards, Kai

1st June 2014, 05:38 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	nice. looks like a slender barong.

3rd June 2014, 09:38 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Oh I would think that it is Tagalog based on the blade shape.

8th June 2014, 08:14 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I will hesitantly say yes, so far. However, I would need to look at some WWII examples to be sure.

8th June 2014, 10:45 AM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Thank you Jose. This one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=itak Spunjer sold some time ago (nice one, see it to late and was sold already) is a later one, still have this form of ricasso but not distinct anymore. I think that Robert have seen and handled much more Tagalog itak, would be interested what he think about this theory. Regards, Detlef

8th June 2014, 10:29 PM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, I was just getting ready to make a comment on your very nice new addition to your collection when I read your last remarks about the file work on the ricasso. I have to admit that I am a little hesitant to agree that this is only seen on older examples of these bolos as I have seen some that were purportedly of WWII manufacture with these markings as well as others supposedly brought back from the Spanish American and Moro wars that did not. What you suggest might very well prove to be true, but more examples that have verifiable provenance would be very helpful in proving your theory. I do however think that these marking were more prevalent on the older examples than on the later ones but as to why I cannot give you a definate answer. It could have been the extra cost to the owner, or that (like many other things) they just went out of style and slowly started to disappear altogether. Anyway, my congratulations to you on your new addition. Best, Robert

8th June 2014, 10:49 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Robert, thank you for comment! Now, when you mentioned it, there are also older blades without this ricasso and file work. So you are correct that this can't be a sign of age. BTW, there are also Visayan blades with similar worked ricasso. Regards, Detlef

2nd July 2014, 04:31 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	WELCOME BACK IAN! Glad you are back with us. Been too long. I'm curious, what indicates this may be Ilokano?

2nd July 2014, 10:11 PM	#15
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Yes, Welcome back Ian. It is great to see you posting again. Best, Robert

6th July 2014, 02:15 PM	#23
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	not to hijack your post Sajen, but it's so refreshing to see Ian back!!! welcome back, my friend!!! nice to see your posts here again