The Omani Khanjar

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Your para 2 above: I am well aware that the hilt is the part of the Royal Khanjar designed by Sheherazad. I did not say otherwise. My point was that the Omani scabbard of this Khanjar has not usually got a turned up toe, so if the "Ruth Hawley" Khanjar is a Muscat Khanjar, then the scabbard is wrong...it has a very turned up toe.
As far as the Saudia source I quoted is concerned, this style of Khanjar (illustrated by them) is attributed to the Al Ahsa area, not Abha.
I am also aware that you have done considerable research into these matters, BUT, word is not enough in my opinion. It needs to be backed up by conclusive and irrefutable documentation. If this is not forthcoming then what is printed here can only be described as opinion.

Last point first if I may; I think that is what Forum largely extends to itself and its members;... opinions. On occasions important details are uncovered sometimes sources are called into question. It is not for me to consider your source since it is not one I have to hand...however I would be surprised if it states that the Muscat Khanjar in Ruth Hawleys publication is from Saudia..and that the style of weapon seen and worn in the Asir is from the east...when it is clearly of the Muscat design..What exactly does your reference state?

As I have noted what needs to be done is a brief study of the Al Ahsa work and then to compare where required.. What you may find(though without wanting to pre empt ) is that the Al Ahsa may be related to Omani work and for similar reasons... i.e. trade with the Bahrain region ...not just a name coined to describe the Islands but a large slice of the mainland in which the oasis of Al Ahsa is located..

Regarding the Muscat Khanjar in Ruth Hawleys work..it is presented as a more turned scabbard. That is how it looks in her publication...I have not seen the actual item. In this case could there be some camera angle play going on?...or was that particular Khanjar made deliberately with a greater turn in the scabbard?...It could be simply a bigger curve built in as a one off... I simply don't know...or that Muscati daggers tended to be made with bigger curves...as #113 indicates..

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Lat point first if I may; I think that is what Forum largely extends to itself and its members;... opinions. On occasions important details are uncovered sometimes sources are called into question. It is not for me to consider your source since it is not one I have to hand...however I would be surprised if it states that the Muscat Khanjar in Ruth Hawleys publication is from Saudia..and that the style of weapon seen and worn in the Asir is from the east...when it is clearly of the Muscat design..What exactly does your reference state?

As I have noted what needs to be done is a brief study of the Al Ahsa work and then to compare where required.. What you may find(though without wanting to pre empt ) is that the Al Ahsa may be related to Omani work and for similar reasons... i.e. trade with the Bahrain region ...not just a name coined to describe the Islands but a large slice of the mainland in which the oasis of Al Ahsa is located..

Regarding the Muscat Khanjar in Ruth Hawleys work..it is presented as a more turned scabbard. That is how it looks in her publication...I have not seen the actual item. In this case could there be some camera angle play going on?...or was that particular Khanjar made deliberately with a greater turn in the scabbard?...It could be simply a bigger curve built in as a one off... I simply don't know...or that Muscati daggers tended to be made with bigger curves.

There is no mention of Ruth Hawley in the Saudia information...it simply shows a pic of a similar khanjar, and a statement that origin is Al Ahsa.

I would point out here that the caption against the khanjar in Ruth Hawley's book does not anywhere mention Muscat. In fact she says that the item was probably made in the Sharqiyah, which appears quite some distance from Muscat. I am assuming therefore that any mention of Muscat has originated from yourself? Do you have concrete/iron clad information to confirm this?

I am somewhat confused in relation to your comment about "islands" in relation to Al Ahsa. As far as I can establish, Al Ahsa is the area of modern day Saudi Arabia against the Omani border, and nowhere near the sea. Maybe my geography is a little astray, but I don't think so......

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1 I am somewhat confused in relation to your comment about "islands" in relation to Al Ahsa. As far as I can establish, Al Ahsa is the area of modern day Saudi Arabia against the Omani border, and nowhere near the sea. Maybe my geography is a little astray, but I don't think so......



Bahrayn.

By Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Prepare to have your geography straightened out ~ See the Bellin map of 18th C reknown...below.

It is vital to look carefully at the historical evidence.

This is a huge block of territory not solely the Bahrayn Archipelago but its mainland region. Wikepedia refers...viz;

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia;

Al-Ahsa, sometimes Al-Hasa, El Hasa, or Hadjar (Arabic: الأحساء‎ al-Aḥsāʾ, locally al-Ḥasāʾ; Turkish: Lahsa) is a traditional oasis region in eastern Saudi Arabia whose name is used by the Al-Ahsa Governorate, which makes up much of that country's Eastern Province. The oasis is located about 60 km inland from the Persian Gulf.

Al-Ahsa is part of the region known historically as Al-Bahrayn, which includes the eastern coast of the Arabian Peninsula down to the borders of Oman, and also includes the island of Awal (modern-day Bahrain).

It therefor transpires that your Al Hasa was in Bahrayn and further that may link it with the Muscat Khanjar style through trade... though I state again that careful study of the weapons from that rather grey area(Al Ahsa) in terms of known research may be required so as to pinpoint any links.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Originally Posted by kahnjar1 I am somewhat confused in relation to your comment about "islands" in relation to Al Ahsa. As far as I can establish, Al Ahsa is the area of modern day Saudi Arabia against the Omani border, and nowhere near the sea. Maybe my geography is a little astray, but I don't think so......



Bahrayn.

By Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Prepare to have your geography straightened out ~ See the Bellin map of 18th C reknown...below.

It is vital to look carefully at the historical evidence.

This is a huge block of territory not solely the Bahrayn Archipelago but its mainland region. Wikepedia refers...viz;

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia;

Al-Ahsa, sometimes Al-Hasa, El Hasa, or Hadjar (Arabic: الأحساء‎ al-Aḥsāʾ, locally al-Ḥasāʾ; Turkish: Lahsa) is a traditional oasis region in eastern Saudi Arabia whose name is used by the Al-Ahsa Governorate, which makes up much of that country's Eastern Province. The oasis is located about 60 km inland from the Persian Gulf.

Al-Ahsa is part of the region known historically as Al-Bahrayn, which includes the eastern coast of the Arabian Peninsula down to the borders of Oman, and also includes the island of Awal (modern-day Bahrain).

It therefor transpires that your Al Hasa was in Bahrayn and further that may link it with the Muscat Khanjar style through trade... though I state again that careful study of the weapons from that rather grey area(Al Ahsa) in terms of known research may be required so as to pinpoint any links.

I guess if you want to go back far enough in history, you will find maps which show something entirely different from the modern day. I am talking about Al Ahsa as it is known today and has nothing to do with Bahrain however you wish to spell it. This link should help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahsa_Governorate

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I guess if you want to go back far enough in history, you will find maps which show something entirely different from the modern day. I am talking about Al Ahsa as it is known today and has nothing to do with Bahrain however you wish to spell it. This link should help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahsa_Governorate

But you do realise/guess that when the map was made ...the one above...that was the period in which these weapons were infused across boundaries and influence was developed...not today! but kindly observe that then Al Ahsa was firmly planted in the region known as Bahrayn.. Thus you must look at the history. It is not exactly pointless to view only the modern day scenario, however, whilst that is accepted on one level, it is hugely important to see it as it was ethnographically.

Nothing to do with the way I want to spell it... Bahrayn was spelled like that by everyone including the great map masters..It represents the spelling in English of the arabic word for sea (Bahr)...two seas(Bahrayn) (The Duality) The accepted modern version being Bahrain.

Perhaps when you are considering the Al Ahsa weapons situation you might include the historical idea? Again without wanting to cloud the outcome it does seem possible that some trade influence both overland and by sea was prevalent in that region from Oman and that Muscat would have had a sizeable hand in the shipping trade link whilst Buraimi would have been the Camel train jump off point..

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

I agree with Ibrahim. Bahrain and al Ahsa are historically connected and often ruled by the same dynasties. Also, the khanjars used in the bahrain island and alAhsa (including Qatar) are identical but the Bahraini's developed their own styles which includes stones on the scabbard etc and the uncommon use of ivory. Please google pictures of the Bahraini royal family and you will see many examples.

Although the Bahraini royal family uses Saidi and Omani styles too.. but historically, they had their own style.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I agree with Ibrahim. Bahrain and al Ahsa are historically connected and often ruled by the same dynasties. Also, the khanjars used in the bahrain island and alAhsa (including Qatar) are identical but the Bahraini's developed their own styles which includes stones on the scabbard etc and the uncommon use of ivory. Please google pictures of the Bahraini royal family and you will see many examples.

Although the Bahraini royal family uses Saidi and Omani styles too.. but historically, they had their own style.

Hi Lofty,
I am not disagreeing in respect of HISTORICAL connection between Al Ahsa and Bahrain. The subject here is about the Al Ahsa Khanjar and the modern location of that area. I have no doubt that in the past there were cross connections and different boundries between factions/tribes etc., so the ORIGINAL khanjar could have originated anywhere.
As stated before, this style is illustrated in the book (not just a pamphlet as suggested by Ibrahiim) publication by the King Faisal Center, as coming from Al Ahsa.
I would respectfully suggest that if it is felt that the information is incorrect, then the person suggesting this should contact the Center to clarify. Their postal address is: P.O.Box 51049, Riyadh 11543, KSA
I look forward with interest to the conclusion.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

There is no mention of Ruth Hawley in the Saudia information...it simply shows a pic of a similar khanjar, and a statement that origin is Al Ahsa.

I would point out here that the caption against the khanjar in Ruth Hawley's book does not anywhere mention Muscat. In fact she says that the item was probably made in the Sharqiyah, which appears quite some distance from Muscat. I am assuming therefore that any mention of Muscat has originated from yourself? Do you have concrete/iron clad information to confirm this?
....

There are about 4 Museums in Muscat who can vouch for the Muscat Khanjar as Ruth Hawley does indirectly through her quite brilliant study in the days when Muscat hardly had a motor car or road in it! Her pamphlet stood alone and excellent in the years as Oman developed, though, now there is a huge body of work constructed with the support of the governments Historical Ministry... "The Richardson and Dorr book". What you may or may not realise is that this country has boomed since 1970 but that before that it was virtually in the dark ages ...It continues to update its portfolio on antiquity. It cannot have achieved perfection in a couple of decades and unlike western countries has not had centuries to get its ducks in a row. What has been achieved has been done since 1970...that is all. There may be a few gaps...but we are certain of the Muscat Khanjars position as an Omani style.

In Oman style of Khanjar does not always indicate place of manufacture(or vica-versa)...Thus for example I can have 5 or 6 different regions workshops make Royal Khanjars...or a Sharqiyah workshop make a Baatinah weapon ...Every Khanjar workshop is capable of making many designs. My workshop in Sohar can make Sur style but it's nowhere near Sur. Sometimes one Khanjar is made in several workshops...The hilt here, the scabbard there, the belt somewhere else. Thus a Sannau workshop may well have made the Muscat style in Ruth Hawleys booklet.

You say now ~
There is no mention of Ruth Hawley in the Saudia information...it simply shows a pic of a similar khanjar, and a statement that origin is Al Ahsa.

But you indicated something quite different previously...the style of Khanjar shown by Ruth Hawley, has been described by the King Faisal Center for Islamic Studies in Riyadh, as coming from the Al Ahsa area of Saudi Arabia.


However, it is your interpretation of something you saw in a pamphlet. More reason for you to have the Al Ahsa work put under the magnifying glass therefor I look forward to seeing your results. Once that is done it may be relevant to compare that work with other regional styles.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.