Ivory Fist Dagger - Katipunan?

Battara · 15th May 2014, 12:56 AM

Greetings Folks!

This dagger ended a while back. The hilt is ivory, and I think elephant, not walrus as stated by the auctioneers. All the metal mounts seem to be brass. However the bottom chape could be silver.

I am wondering if this is Philippine, especially from the Katipunan era. The only thing is that the tang does not seem to go all the way through but is pinned through.

Your thoughts?

Rick · 15th May 2014, 01:21 AM

I often wonder about the relationship between the 'Figa' charm and this Philippine pommel style .
They both seem to be derived from either Spanish or Portuguese influence; I am not sure which .

ariel · 15th May 2014, 04:27 AM

It's a Russian equivalent of the politically-incorrect "finger".
Every time I see yet another dagger with a three-finger combination, I cannot help but chuckle :-)

Robert · 15th May 2014, 08:05 PM

Hello Jose, Everything about this looks like older Philippine work to me "except" the pinning (if it in fact does go through the tang) and the hilt carving. The poor quality of the carving makes me think that if this is Philippine that the hilt was most likely made post WWII as a replacement as everything else looks much older. These are just my opinions and I could easily be completely wrong but, it could also explain the pinning as I have been seeing more and more of it being used on newer Philippine blades of older styling coming up for sale lately. Are you sure that the pins go completely through the hilt and tang and are not just decoration set into the ivory?

Rick, All of the figa charms that I have seen have the thumb protruding out between the fingers and not in the clenched fist manner with the thumb laid along side the fingers. The figa charm I believe was more for good luck and fertility while the clenched fist was more a symbol of defiance and solidarity.
As I said above, I could be completely wrong about this also.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 16th May 2014, 12:52 AM

Robert you could be onto something. That might explain the rivets, assuming that this is even Philippine. The sheath form does look more Philippine, just like the leather ones. Certainly this fist is more stylized than those typical of the turn of the century.

David · 16th May 2014, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Everything about this looks like older Philippine work to me "except" the pinning (if it in fact does go through the tang) and the hilt carving. The poor quality of the carving makes me think that if this is Philippine that the hilt was most likely made post WWII as a replacement as everything else looks much older.

I wouldn't call this a "poor quality" carving Robert. As José suggests, i think "stylized" is a better word. I haven't spent too much time studying this form, but i have seen some of the more realistic depictions of hands on these knives, but i'm not sure that necessarily counts this hilt out as a genuinely old example. It certainly has a very lovely patina that does not look to be artificial to my eyes. Is it possible that some more stylized versions of these hilts were also carved at the time?
I can't be certain without the knife in hand, but the pins look more decorative than functional to me. The ones on the palm of the hand are certainly only decorative which seems to re-enforce the possibility that all the pins are.

Robert · 16th May 2014, 03:29 AM

Hello David, Maybe it's the photos or maybe it's my eyes but I really don't see that much patina on the hilt. I agree that it would be much easier to make a judgment call on this piece if one had the knife in hand. It does have a bit of cracking but that could have been caused by poor storage in a hot dry attic as easily as by age shrinkage or rust build-up on the tang. Stylized might have been a better word to describe the carving than poor but I still think that the hilt is from WWII or later for the same reason. The style just does not match up to any of the true older examples that I have seen so far but, does for later pieces.

David · 16th May 2014, 05:24 PM

José, is it possible to upload better files of the hilt. The photography is fine, but you images are pixelated, probably due to improper sizing along the way. I would like to see some larger images w/o pixelation to more clearly see the surface finish on the ivory. Thanks!

Battara · 16th May 2014, 08:01 PM

Thanks guys for your input.

Robert: Like David I do see patina on the ivory, darker color in places along with dirt in the crack.

David: These pictures came from the auction site. I wish I had better and bigger pictures, but alas this is all I have. If it were mine, that might be a different story..........

Robert · 16th May 2014, 10:22 PM

I know it has some patina on the hilt as even by my estimation of its age it could still be 60-70 years old. What I do not see is a patina that would (at least to me) be consistent with something that would be 100 + years of age. At the same time someone could have used a cleaner with alcohol in it on the hilt which could explain why it looks the way it does. I base my estimate of age of the hilt more on the style of the carving than anything else.

David · 17th May 2014, 12:15 AM

Can you show us any similar contemporary hilts for comparison Robert?
As for patina, i don't thing this images are clear and sharp enough to make too many guesses on age. Is this not in you hands yet José?
Ivory will discolor differently in different environments and with different amounts of handling. I would still like to see clearer, larger, closer, more detailed photos.

Battara · 17th May 2014, 01:11 AM

No David, I did not get this.

Robert, you do have a good point. There are some examples of WWII fist horn hilts. I think it is older than the 1960s, but there is a possibility that it is post Katipunan.

Robert · 17th May 2014, 08:35 AM

David, I do not usually save photos of anything newer than the 1940's (and very few of those) but I will look through my albums and see what I can find. Most of the later form of fist hilts that I have seen have been on various auction sites and estate sales. I have seen them on what I would call "semi transitional and semi traditional" pieces, even talibongs, barongs and just about any other form of Philippine edged weapon. Most of the later ones that I have seen have been made from either horn or wood but I have also seen them in brass and aluminum. I have even seen a hinalung mounted with a fist hilt.

Almost all of the ones that I have seen seem to fall into the "made for those who travel" category and again that is why I do not usually save the photos.

Jose, I agree that this was made before the the 1960's and it could possibly date as far back as the 30's but, I have yet to see a fist carved in this style that was any older than the 40's. There have been so many Philippine weapons coming out of closets and other hiding places and onto the market lately that there is the possibility that one hilted like this with provenance that dates it back to the 30's or earlier will show up. It is just too bad that there a no other photos of this dagger and hilt that are clearer than the ones above.

15th May 2014, 12:56 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Ivory Fist Dagger - Katipunan? Greetings Folks! This dagger ended a while back. The hilt is ivory, and I think elephant, not walrus as stated by the auctioneers. All the metal mounts seem to be brass. However the bottom chape could be silver. I am wondering if this is Philippine, especially from the Katipunan era. The only thing is that the tang does not seem to go all the way through but is pinned through. Your thoughts? Attached Images

15th May 2014, 01:21 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Figa ? I often wonder about the relationship between the 'Figa' charm and this Philippine pommel style . They both seem to be derived from either Spanish or Portuguese influence; I am not sure which .

15th May 2014, 04:27 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It's a Russian equivalent of the politically-incorrect "finger". Every time I see yet another dagger with a three-finger combination, I cannot help but chuckle :-)

15th May 2014, 08:05 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Jose, Everything about this looks like older Philippine work to me "except" the pinning (if it in fact does go through the tang) and the hilt carving. The poor quality of the carving makes me think that if this is Philippine that the hilt was most likely made post WWII as a replacement as everything else looks much older. These are just my opinions and I could easily be completely wrong but, it could also explain the pinning as I have been seeing more and more of it being used on newer Philippine blades of older styling coming up for sale lately. Are you sure that the pins go completely through the hilt and tang and are not just decoration set into the ivory? Rick, All of the figa charms that I have seen have the thumb protruding out between the fingers and not in the clenched fist manner with the thumb laid along side the fingers. The figa charm I believe was more for good luck and fertility while the clenched fist was more a symbol of defiance and solidarity. As I said above, I could be completely wrong about this also. Best, Robert

16th May 2014, 12:52 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Robert you could be onto something. That might explain the rivets, assuming that this is even Philippine. The sheath form does look more Philippine, just like the leather ones. Certainly this fist is more stylized than those typical of the turn of the century.

16th May 2014, 03:29 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello David, Maybe it's the photos or maybe it's my eyes but I really don't see that much patina on the hilt. I agree that it would be much easier to make a judgment call on this piece if one had the knife in hand. It does have a bit of cracking but that could have been caused by poor storage in a hot dry attic as easily as by age shrinkage or rust build-up on the tang. Stylized might have been a better word to describe the carving than poor but I still think that the hilt is from WWII or later for the same reason. The style just does not match up to any of the true older examples that I have seen so far but, does for later pieces.

16th May 2014, 05:24 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	José, is it possible to upload better files of the hilt. The photography is fine, but you images are pixelated, probably due to improper sizing along the way. I would like to see some larger images w/o pixelation to more clearly see the surface finish on the ivory. Thanks!

16th May 2014, 08:01 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Thanks guys for your input. Robert: Like David I do see patina on the ivory, darker color in places along with dirt in the crack. David: These pictures came from the auction site. I wish I had better and bigger pictures, but alas this is all I have. If it were mine, that might be a different story..........

16th May 2014, 10:22 PM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I know it has some patina on the hilt as even by my estimation of its age it could still be 60-70 years old. What I do not see is a patina that would (at least to me) be consistent with something that would be 100 + years of age. At the same time someone could have used a cleaner with alcohol in it on the hilt which could explain why it looks the way it does. I base my estimate of age of the hilt more on the style of the carving than anything else.

17th May 2014, 12:15 AM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Can you show us any similar contemporary hilts for comparison Robert? As for patina, i don't thing this images are clear and sharp enough to make too many guesses on age. Is this not in you hands yet José? Ivory will discolor differently in different environments and with different amounts of handling. I would still like to see clearer, larger, closer, more detailed photos.

17th May 2014, 01:11 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	No David, I did not get this. Robert, you do have a good point. There are some examples of WWII fist horn hilts. I think it is older than the 1960s, but there is a possibility that it is post Katipunan.

17th May 2014, 08:35 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	David, I do not usually save photos of anything newer than the 1940's (and very few of those) but I will look through my albums and see what I can find. Most of the later form of fist hilts that I have seen have been on various auction sites and estate sales. I have seen them on what I would call "semi transitional and semi traditional" pieces, even talibongs, barongs and just about any other form of Philippine edged weapon. Most of the later ones that I have seen have been made from either horn or wood but I have also seen them in brass and aluminum. I have even seen a hinalung mounted with a fist hilt. Almost all of the ones that I have seen seem to fall into the "made for those who travel" category and again that is why I do not usually save the photos. Jose, I agree that this was made before the the 1960's and it could possibly date as far back as the 30's but, I have yet to see a fist carved in this style that was any older than the 40's. There have been so many Philippine weapons coming out of closets and other hiding places and onto the market lately that there is the possibility that one hilted like this with provenance that dates it back to the 30's or earlier will show up. It is just too bad that there a no other photos of this dagger and hilt that are clearer than the ones above.