A small cannon barrel

fernando · 16th April 2014, 05:17 PM

This time not a noise maker but potentialy a handcannon barrel.
Although the auctioner has put it up as an XVIII century 'mascolo d'allegrezza' i have had a firm opinion that this is a XIV century gothic handgonne barrel. When i received it and held in my hand i realized that such slim and slightly octogonal barrel would not make the purpose of a signal bombard, with its 13,5 cms length and only 38 m/m width at mid section. The bore measures at muzzle 25 m/m (some 20 m/m at chamber).

.

Matchlock · 16th April 2014, 08:39 PM

Hi Nando,

I do hope to be able and tell with sufficient authority on the subject

that this indeed is one of the earliest existing handgonne barrels that I have ever seen.

It compares quite exactly to the sample in my collection

- see my thread, post #2:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne

which is obviously made of band iron folded around a hardened core.

Please also see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=berne

With their overall shapes, of round section throughout and with notable swamping at the rear as well as at the forward end, plus the fact that their touch holes are very close to the rear end, they represent the last stylistic extension of the Romanesque period, being very close in style to the famous Loshult gun (ca. 1330-50), and doubtlessly ranging among the earliest wrought iron barrels ever made.

If you look at it closely, holding it against broad daylight, you should be able to identify the characteristic structure of the wound band iron, which is clearly visible on my specimen.

And, once more in terms of style, it is significantly earlier than the earliest barrels adopting the new Gothic style and reflecting it by their multi-sided shapes: hexagonal and octagonal, both probably entering the war scene as late as ca. 1400, as some barrels in both your collection and mine denote

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nd+cannon+1400

and as the earliest known existing and datable portable 'long arm'/'gun', which luckily is in my collection, proves because it exactly corresponds to an illustration dated 1411 (Cod.Vind. 3069, fol. 38v) - see:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...andgun+1400-10

Please also search the surface in front of the touch hole carefully for a tiny arrowhead mark, as it is struck on my barrel!

The measurements of my counterpart are:
overall length 13.8 cm, outer diameter at both the rear and forward end 4.5 cm, 'bore' ca. 25 mm; thus our barrels are nearly identical and doubtlessly were part of a series made by the same workshop!
Highly remarkable is the narrowing rear breech section you mentioned, as it is another early criterion typical of guns meant to fire limestone balls (German: Steinbüchsen), before balls were cast of lead or, in the case of the smith Peter Pögl in the 1490's, were of wrought iron, made by order of King Maximilian.
I should closely examine my sample as well.

Best wishes
and congrats,
Michl

Norman McCormick · 16th April 2014, 11:32 PM

Bem feito meu amigo.

My Best Regards,
Norman.

Matchlock · 17th April 2014, 12:48 AM

Hi Norman,

Though your Portuguese is way better than mine my command of Latin enables me to perfectly understand what you were saying, and of course I fully consent.
After all, I was not totally 'innocent' regarding Nando's purchase ...
Anyway, Nando is the winner of an important and early barrel that, to most people, sadly is nothing but 'another little noisemaker'. Among those ranked the auction house: their catalog illustration depicted that barrel standing in an upright position, thus proving that to them it merely was a saluting gun of uncertain date.
A small group of connoisseurs knows better though ...

Best,
Michael

fernando · 17th April 2014, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Bem feito meu amigo...

Muito obrigado, Norman but, this is not fair

Just as i thought to declare with all my transparency that, the bem feito (well done) was not my credit, Michael comes up on stage and unveals the mistery

.
It was he who actualy pointed my radar to this example and made me see this is the real thing. Still now i am digesting this piece; if he didn't open my (our) eyes for the band iron structure of this barrel i would think those seams are forging irregularities

.
Still i don't discertn the arrowhead mark; but then, i don't have Michl's master's eyes

And by the way, Norman; your Scotish is improving. Wonder why Michl realizes it is portuguese

Norman McCormick · 18th April 2014, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Norman,

Though your Portuguese is way better than mine my command of Latin enables me to perfectly understand what you were saying, and of course I fully consent.
After all, I was not totally 'innocent' regarding Nando's purchase ...
Anyway, Nando is the winner of an important and early barrel that, to most people, sadly is nothing but 'another little noisemaker'. Among those ranked the auction house: their catalog illustration depicted that barrel standing in an upright position, thus proving that to them it merely was a saluting gun of uncertain date.
A small group of connoisseurs knows better though ...

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,
It is nice to know that Fernando has a 'guardian angel' to back him up as there may be a certain Lady who thinks that he has just bought another length of rusty pipe.

Kind Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I have to confess my Portuguese is from an online translator and as far as Latin goes I was asked politely at school to choose another subject as after two years my teacher had become as frustrated as me at my inability to grasp, as far as I was concerned, the inexplicable conjugation of Latin verbs

amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant, amabo, amabis, amabit, amabimus, amabitus, amabint, amabam, amabas, amabat, amabamus, amabatus, amabant, etc etc etc I think?

Norman McCormick · 18th April 2014, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

i have had a firm opinion.

Hi Fernando,
I'm afraid this little phrase gave the game away

as I know who's 'firm opinion' you would trust.

I do hope you enjoy your new 'old banger'

just don't light the touch hole

Kind Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 19th April 2014, 08:55 AM

Spectacular find, regardless of who pointed you that way, my friend! Such an incredible piece and (I'm assuming here) sold for the price of a common signalling piece! Well done for all involved, as everyone likes a savings!

fernando · 19th April 2014, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

... the inexplicable conjugation of Latin verbs

amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant, amabo, amabis, amabit, amabimus, amabitus, amabint, amabam, amabas, amabat, amabamus, amabatus, amabant, etc etc etc I think?

Oh man!
My language is latin based, but i have never dreamed of knowing that much Latin. Congrats

fernando · 19th April 2014, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Spectacular find, regardless of who pointed you that way, my friend!

Thanks for my part, Capitão

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... and (I'm assuming here) sold for the price of a common signalling piece!

You bet

fernando · 19th April 2014, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

... I'm afraid this little phrase gave the game away

as I know who's 'firm opinion' you would trust. :cool ...

These Scots are bright and clever

fernando · 5th December 2014, 07:06 PM

Giving wings to imagination ... or in other words, a conjugation of several cannon bed types seen around with a barrel that potentialy had a rather different stock

.

,

Multumesc · 14th December 2014, 02:15 PM

Beautiful gun.

theswordcollector · 15th December 2014, 01:04 PM

Great find!

16th April 2014, 05:17 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A small cannon barrel This time not a noise maker but potentialy a handcannon barrel. Although the auctioner has put it up as an XVIII century 'mascolo d'allegrezza' i have had a firm opinion that this is a XIV century gothic handgonne barrel. When i received it and held in my hand i realized that such slim and slightly octogonal barrel would not make the purpose of a signal bombard, with its 13,5 cms length and only 38 m/m width at mid section. The bore measures at muzzle 25 m/m (some 20 m/m at chamber). . Attached Images

5th December 2014, 07:06 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Giving wings to imagination ... or in other words, a conjugation of several cannon bed types seen around with a barrel that potentialy had a rather different stock . , Attached Images

14th December 2014, 02:15 PM	#13
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	A small cannon barrel Beautiful gun.

15th December 2014, 01:04 PM	#14
theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 48	Great find! Attached Images

16th April 2014, 08:39 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Nando, I do hope to be able and tell with sufficient authority on the subject that this indeed is one of the earliest existing handgonne barrels that I have ever seen. It compares quite exactly to the sample in my collection - see my thread, post #2: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne which is obviously made of band iron folded around a hardened core. Please also see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=handgonne http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=berne With their overall shapes, of round section throughout and with notable swamping at the rear as well as at the forward end, plus the fact that their touch holes are very close to the rear end, they represent the last stylistic extension of the Romanesque period, being very close in style to the famous Loshult gun (ca. 1330-50), and doubtlessly ranging among the earliest wrought iron barrels ever made. If you look at it closely, holding it against broad daylight, you should be able to identify the characteristic structure of the wound band iron, which is clearly visible on my specimen. And, once more in terms of style, it is significantly earlier than the earliest barrels adopting the new Gothic style and reflecting it by their multi-sided shapes: hexagonal and octagonal, both probably entering the war scene as late as ca. 1400, as some barrels in both your collection and mine denote http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nd+cannon+1400 and as the earliest known existing and datable portable 'long arm'/'gun', which luckily is in my collection, proves because it exactly corresponds to an illustration dated 1411 (Cod.Vind. 3069, fol. 38v) - see: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...andgun+1400-10 Please also search the surface in front of the touch hole carefully for a tiny arrowhead mark, as it is struck on my barrel! The measurements of my counterpart are: overall length 13.8 cm, outer diameter at both the rear and forward end 4.5 cm, 'bore' ca. 25 mm; thus our barrels are nearly identical and doubtlessly were part of a series made by the same workshop! Highly remarkable is the narrowing rear breech section you mentioned, as it is another early criterion typical of guns meant to fire limestone balls (German: Steinbüchsen), before balls were cast of lead or, in the case of the smith Peter Pögl in the 1490's, were of wrought iron, made by order of King Maximilian. I should closely examine my sample as well. Best wishes and congrats, Michl Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 17th April 2014 at 03:34 PM.

16th April 2014, 11:32 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Bem feito meu amigo. My Best Regards, Norman.

17th April 2014, 12:48 AM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Norman, Though your Portuguese is way better than mine my command of Latin enables me to perfectly understand what you were saying, and of course I fully consent. After all, I was not totally 'innocent' regarding Nando's purchase ... Anyway, Nando is the winner of an important and early barrel that, to most people, sadly is nothing but 'another little noisemaker'. Among those ranked the auction house: their catalog illustration depicted that barrel standing in an upright position, thus proving that to them it merely was a saluting gun of uncertain date. A small group of connoisseurs knows better though ... Best, Michael

19th April 2014, 08:55 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Spectacular find, regardless of who pointed you that way, my friend! Such an incredible piece and (I'm assuming here) sold for the price of a common signalling piece! Well done for all involved, as everyone likes a savings!