Horn, or hoof?

[Richard G]

I have in my possession an ass's hoof that has been mounted as an ashtray as a souvenir from the WW1 campaigns in Palestine. The hoof itself is a light olive fibrous structure. I also have a jambiya with a hilt of a remarkably similar material which I think most collectors might assume to be rhino horn, because if it's not buffallo or wood, and is fibrous and transmits light then that is what a jambiya hilt should be. Never, in many years of collecting, can I remember the hilt of a jambiya, or indeed any weapon, being described as from the hoof of any animal. Is this simply because It did not happen? or because we assume it did not happen?
I ask these question because I do not know; but, for example, are the toes and hooves of rhino, elephant, camel, buffalo etc. suitable material for the hilt of a jambiya? Were they ever used as such, even if surreptitously?
Regards
Richard

[Emanuel]

Hi Richard,

This question came up a few years ago

No conclusive proof of hoof being used, IIRC.

Regards,
Emanuel

[VANDOO]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=GIRAFFE HERE IS ANOTHER LINK TO A SIMULAR POST WITH SOME INFORMATION AND PICTURES.

[spiral]

Camel hooves are common on Yemini jambiya, And very cheap when people know its hoof... But probably very expensive if the customer cant tell the difference though!

There structure is very similar to fiberous horn.

The Chinese also use horses hoofs to make fake "rhino horn" sculptures.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Camel hooves are common on Yemini jambiya, And very cheap when people know its hoof... But probably very expensive if the customer cant tell the difference though!

There structure is very similar to fiberous horn.

The Chinese also use horses hoofs to make fake "rhino horn" sculptures.

spiral

This is very interesting.. I have never seen camel bone used in Jambia... any pictures? They use cheap cow horn... Ive seen some odd orange coloured thing maybe off a Giraffe... But then theres the weird description given by locals ~ who use the term for Rhino as Ziraffe !

More interesting may be the whole application of horn in a bid to reduce the use of important species Please see http://stoneplus.cst.cmich.edu/zoogems/ivory.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Thank you, Emmanuel, Vandoo, Spiral and Ibrahim,
I guess I have the answer. I have long suspected that some jambiya hilts assumed to be rhino were actually something else. It must be difficult to describe a hilt as camel hoof, etc. if you don't know what camel hoof looks like, and hence describe it as whatever it looks most similar too in the assessor's experience.
However, it occurs to me that Yemenis and Omanis would be familiar with camel hoof and not so easily fooled as us in the West might be; which leads me to wonder why all our leading experts, such as Robert Elgood, Robert Hales and leading auction house cataloguers, never mention it.
Ibrahim, have you come across camel hoof as a material?
Incidentally i have a jambiya with a white bone hilt, which may be camel, and small trinket boxes can be found in the UK which are often described as North African camel bone.
I will try to post some pictures later.
Regards
Richard
PS. Interesting article here https://www.academia.edu/6441820/The..._various_parts

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This is very interesting.. I have never seen camel bone used in Jambia... any pictures? They use cheap cow horn... Ive seen some odd orange coloured thing maybe off a Giraffe... But then theres the weird description given by locals ~ who use the term for Rhino as Ziraffe !
.

I haven't either! .

But I did not say bone I said hoof! Perhaps if I said camel nail you would understand? The hoof is the keratin structure covering the end of it foot!

But according to some sources 3% of jambiya in Sanna at times have been camel hoof.

I recommend reading the old back issues of Pachyderm magazine if you want a broader knowledge of the use of rhino horn & other materials including camel hoof/nail for Jambiya in the Yemen.

linky...

But for starters.

This pdf. is interesting, Points out the use of camel hoof/nail. Published by Traffic.

linky to pdf.

I agree totally Richard, its around, Its similar to Rhino horn but not identical. Ive never mentioned it on the forums as I figure it will lead to more fakery & possibly worse lives for some unfortunate horses or camels.

Great link too!

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

I haven't either! But according to some sources 3% of jambiya in Sanna at times have been camel hoof.

But I did not say bone I said hoof! Perhaps if I said camel nail you would understand? The hoof is the keratin structure covering the end of it foot!

I recommend reading the old back issues of Pachyderm magazine if you want a broader knowledge of the use of rhino horn & other materials including camel hoof/nail for Jambiya in the Yemen.

linky...

But for starters.

This pdf. is interesting, Points out the use of camel hoof/nail. Published by Traffic.

linky to pdf.

I agree totally Richard, its around, Its similar to Rhino horn but not identical. Ive never mentioned it on the forums as I figure it will lead to more fakery & possibly worse lives for some unfortunate horses or camels.

Spiral

Salaams Spiral... Sorry did I say bone? Oh ya...I meant hoof...By the way I hold the world record for falling off camels! I used to own 8 of them... great animals!! ...I can't believe anyone would want to cut their feet off as hilts...It is said that a Sheikh in the Bedouin...when he dies is wrapped in the skin of his favourite camel...ah well...

I have read your informative post a while ago on Rhino ( Pachyderm mag...) most interesting.

Your other article above is fascinating and I'm about finished that...what an eye opener! It remarks on the Giraffe word (Z'raff) which I am pretty sure is the same in Yemen as it is here... and means Rhino. It also mentions the orange coloured plastic hilts...What it doesn't seem to go into is the carbon hilts which these days are excellent quality and sometimes called Amerikky..(imports from USA) They take all the silver pins without splitting and are the right weight and colour.

The article goes on to describe stone (agate etc) which we also have but they are useless because they are way too heavy and when they hit the floor they shatter! and probably worse... they are non traditional.

So apologies for mentioning bone instead of hoof..but anyway..so we are talking about horn or hoof though I think it expands to encompass all the variables..making the thread somewhat deeper and I think jolly interesting

I just wish people here would accept Siberian Mamoths Tusk.

Richard G. ~ I have to say I have never seen a camel hoof hilt on any dagger Yemeni or Omani... It could be that they simply look bovine and get lumped into that category of cheap hilt... I have a couple of cheap Jambias on my desk and I am looking at those but they look like bull or cow. Your white bone hilt could be camel or something marine ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral... Sorry did I say bone? Oh ya...I meant hoof...By the way I hold the world record for falling off camels! I used to own 8 of them... great animals!! ...I can't believe anyone would want to cut their feet off as hilts...It is said that a Sheikh in the Bedouin...when he dies is wrapped in the skin of his favourite camel...ah well...

I have read your informative post a while ago on Rhino ( Pachyderm mag...) most interesting.

Your other article above is fascinating and I'm about finished that...what an eye opener! It remarks on the Giraffe word (Z'raff) which I am pretty sure is the same in Yemen as it is here... and means Rhino. It also mentions the orange coloured plastic hilts...What it doesn't seem to go into is the carbon hilts which these days are excellent quality and sometimes called Amerikky..(imports from USA) They take all the silver pins without splitting and are the right weight and colour.

The article goes on to describe stone (agate etc) which we also have but they are useless because they are way too heavy and when they hit the floor they shatter! and probably worse... they are non traditional.

So apologies for mentioning bone instead of hoof..but anyway..so we are talking about horn or hoof though I think it expands to encompass all the variables..making the thread somewhat deeper and I think jolly interesting

I just wish people here would accept Siberian Mamoths Tusk.

Richard G. ~ I have to say I have never seen a camel hoof hilt on any dagger Yemeni or Omani... It could be that they simply look bovine and get lumped into that category of cheap hilt... I have a couple of cheap Jambias on my desk and I am looking at those but they look like bull or cow. Your white bone hilt could be camel or something marine ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste Ibrahiim, Well I also make many errors in grammar & spelling & its my first language, also my brain runs much faster than my typing as well...leading to other errors

Glad you enjoyed the links...From what Ive seen Hoof material looks more like rhino than buffalo/cow/goat.

I think when you get a jambiya, where some knowledgeable say rhino & some knowledgeable say not, then its quite often hoof...

Interesting to see the orange plastic described as the crap it is, when weve all seen so many sold as exotic amber or some rare horn for ridiculous sums in the west for many years!

Realistically there should already be enough good hilts to go around in the country's of traditional use & veneration, Yemen, Oman etc but know they also get bought & scrapped for some countries eastern medicines/ hangover/trendy gifts increasing the value, which also makes them even then sought after by more western collectors, as exotic & rare & combines to make the whole situation unviable & then increases the poaching of rhino & then the theft of collectors & museums pieces in the west.

Which all goes to get lobby's to act & governments to then pass laws that may result in once legitimate collections & collectors being placed at risk of confiscation & criminalisation. {Like the currant American ivory scenario.]

Its a spinning wheel running down a hill, with no brakes.

I have no solution , just noticing the vicious recurring circle, & how all the factors play together.

My Regards,
Spiral