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13th March 2014, 01:39 AM | #91 |
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We have a person from the culture we are discussing come on to say that these creatures are not "deities". Let it go Jim…
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13th March 2014, 04:55 AM | #92 |
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I must say Jim that despite all that you would read- in the ground context of Sri Lanka Makara or Lion is not considered as any god or deities. You must realize Sinhala context is not Hindu either and some of the mainland concepts do not properly apply here anyway.
Fernando I have always found your posts interesting and inspiring as it provided a counter/ more Portuguese oriented perspective to how I experience things down here. Your sources and material presented are just great. I think it is clear that the kasthane origin is Sinhala. but there are many un-answered questions remain and it is also clear that it did draw inspiration from many foreign sources as well. one of the questions that I am intrigued by is that the changeover of the Sinhala fighters from the dominance of double edged long swords of the previous era- that seem quite similar to the arms of the Portuguese roughly at the time of their arrival and shifting to the Kasthana. The Portuguese is possibly the first enemy the Sinhala armies face off that used heavy armor- cuirasses etc at that scale. many other weapons show adaptations to items that are better suited to armor piercing purposes at the time but Kasthana travels a different path in retaining a slashing blade. why? (keeping in mind that Kasthana may not have been a primary weapon of the soldiery of the field (Calachurro example?)). Also I just noted that brass blades are common among modern replica’s but it in no way necessitates that the image you presented is modern. Please let know the date of publication you extracted the swords from. If you look at the proper battle kasthana and the later purely ceremonial ones one of the most noted differences is the way the blade attaches to the hilt (like in the images provided), it will be very interesting to see how far back this type of construction can be set to. Regards Prasanna |
13th March 2014, 03:23 PM | #93 | |
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I was actually about to reitterate what you had pointed out regarding the Home Grown nature of The Kastane illustrating your post of the earlier thread showing the stone figure "Hanguranketha" with a sword clearly of similar Quillon style at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=9&pp=30 and more or less ruling out any foreign influence altogether... though in fact the influence clearly flowed the other way much later than the 16th C. onto European Dogheads and in fact earlier referring to the Benin weapon(Hybrid) and to some extent the Popham Armour(Courtsword) and even the Sendai item .. I hope you agree that though this has been a huge and difficult task especially as the research is so difficult and in particular from the foreigners viewpoint..and not being versed so well in Buddhism nor Hinduism that what we actually have achieved ...stormy at times ... ....is not a bad effort since now practically all the detail that is currently available rests on these pages. I make no apology for repetition or what some describe as "fat" since it is easy to jab remarks at what has been a difficult struggle to say the least. I believe that those who have fallen by the wayside did so because they couldnt stand the pace...or just were unable to get involved..maybe they can join later. The ink is free ! and they are always welcome. In your other post in which you state Quote "I think it is clear that the kasthane origin is Sinhala. but there are many un-answered questions remain and it is also clear that it did draw inspiration from many foreign sources as well. one of the questions that I am intrigued by is that the changeover of the Sinhala fighters from the dominance of double edged long swords of the previous era- that seem quite similar to the arms of the Portuguese roughly at the time of their arrival and shifting to the Kasthana". Unquote. This is a fascinating subject and I hope you can advise us further. Nice to see your post and thank you for the excellent and constructive content... Great Country, Great People, Great Sword ! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th March 2014 at 03:44 PM. |
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13th March 2014, 03:43 PM | #94 | |
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13th March 2014, 03:53 PM | #95 | |
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Perhaps it would be like flogging a dead horse to continue arguing the point no? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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13th March 2014, 04:38 PM | #96 | |
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13th March 2014, 06:39 PM | #97 | |
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I have no problem with the words Icon or Deity. No it probably does not matter whether someone describes an Icon as a fish or dragon or Makara etc since it is only their perception ... nothing to get hung up about and since this is a discussion; no malice however hot the anvil becomes.. Prasanna Weerakkody would perhaps describe something as Iconic whereas I may perhaps call it a Deity... it doesn't matter. we are talking about the same thing. What matters is in getting together a set of informative details however hard that is...and being able to step back and freely admit that Library has been served and as having contributed to the understanding of this very difficult subject; I think that is fair. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th March 2014 at 06:54 PM. |
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13th March 2014, 07:00 PM | #98 | |
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13th March 2014, 07:22 PM | #99 | |
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I didn't dare familiarizing the Kasthana with the Calachurro, although it crossed my mind; but these inferrments are waters too deep for me to navigate . I have tried again to get the semanthics of Kasthana in the same glossary where the term Calachurro is contemplated. The author, Monsignor Sebastião Rodolfo Dalgado (Assagaum, Bardez, Goa 1855 - Lisbon 1922) is completely above suspicion, from the heigths of his knowledge of Devanagari, Latin, Concani, Lecturer in Sanscrit, Doctor in letters, author of a study of Portuguese influence in Indian subcontinent languages and other. I was not surprised in not finding the term in the letter K, as such letter is not used in the portuguese alphabet. Then i tried the letter C (for Castane or similar) and still i found nothing, apart from the term Catana, derived from the well known Katana, which has a dozen quotations from the various chroniclars, but no one linking it to Sinhalese Kasthana, a possibility suggested by some. It is for me a great mistery that the Kasthana is not mentioned in this glossary ... unless the Portuguese gave it a name with a different composition. I have phoned Mr. Daehnhardt, the book author and collector who owns the the brass blade Kasthana, besides several others, some of them highly valuable examples. I asked him to place an age on the example in the book and he answered, not mentioning that specific one but, brass blades in general, which certainly were from the 19th century ... even from the 20th. Talking about these swords in general he is of the opinion that the Kasthana dates from medieval times ( 4th, 6th, 7th century); ands he reiterates that it only achieved the lower curved (pseudo) quillons after association with the Portuguese ... whatever this statement is worth (my remark). . Last edited by fernando; 13th March 2014 at 10:40 PM. Reason: paragraph correction |
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13th March 2014, 09:11 PM | #100 | |
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Whew!! OK doc!! I'm alright now.......Ok, OK, let it go, let it go! I'm glad to see the discussion is still going, and as I see various entries I can see just how silly much of it was. What I was trying to do, during my spell, was to illustrate what Prasanna noted quite simply, that the term denoting these mythical entities is different in many cases in Sri Lanka than in other cultural parlances. The problems of semantics, transliteration and perception of course become issues in studying any facet of one culture by those of another. This is why we have footnotes, qualifying references or simply explanations of alternate views or terms. Actually those practices are unfortunately what often is in place with my 'avalanches' By this same token, much the same as recognizing that definitions are not necessary applicable in every case (the reason why dictionaries offer multiple meanings) , descriptions of terms and meanings are not always 'cut and dry' particularly with the complexities of deeply subjective material. With that I would recognize that proper understanding of terms, in the context being observed, is indeed important. This is why as researchers it is important for us to include these disparities in text as part of discussion, which often results in considerably more words. One of the key reasons for disagreements and misunderstandings in these venues is poor wording, lack of qualification or explanatory text, along of course with discourtesy. I know that in trying to describe many of the figures we have been discussing, I feel very uncomfortable in using descriptions such as 'monster'; 'beast' or 'grotesque' as often used in many descriptions, as these are often seen with pejorative meanings in western culture. In this same manner I know that I try, as clearly has Ibrahiim, to find as proper an unoffensive term as possible to show proper respect in referring to the various elements we are discussing. Thankfully Prasanna has rejoined us to help us with these delicate aspects, for example in properly understanding the term deity, along with his comprehensive overall knowledge of course on these subjects. What is even better is that Fernando has rejoined us with his extremely valuable knowledge and resources on the Portuguese part in the history of these weapons, not to mention his always brilliant wit which truly helps lighten the admittedly sometimes text laden burden here. With that I would acknowledge Rick's note on that issue, and his concerns on our integrity here due to the 'heavy' demeanor of the thread(s). It is true that many of us here are from different cultures, and certainly all have our own 'styles' and interests. It has always been my position that we should allow patience and understanding to prevail as we interact, as well as observing courtesy and gentlemanly respect toward each other. A very wise man once said, if you find the style or subject matter of another disturbing or annoying, simply ignore them and avoid the thread and topics. I am glad this thread has continued, and especially with the outstanding complement of participants now present. While some view the topic as having run its course, I have never seen history of anything as having reached that point, it is very much a living entity, always having more to say. That is why we are here, and hopefully others sharing these interests will join, and emphatically I will say, all opinions, observations and views are welcome and eagerly accepted. |
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13th March 2014, 09:46 PM | #101 | |
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While i agree with you that language is indeed flexible, the word "Deity" refers to the divine no matter how you cut it or which of its multiple meanings we apply. It is from the word "Deus" which quite literally means "god". There is no other way to look at it. Really… http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us..._english/deity I do really hope we can ALL just let this go now as it seems a bit like wagging the dog to me. BTW, it was not your "avalanche of words" that i was referring to in my previous post. |
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13th March 2014, 10:29 PM | #102 |
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Thanks David, at last we agree on some stuff!!! and the mythical creature term seems a most applicable one. I recognize the root word from the Latin 'deus' (oh oh, I admit, it was on Wiki and that it does apply to divinity, so the application does become tenuous when applied to the creatures ( in Texas terminology 'critters') which are subordinate or supportive to the properly recognized deities.
Thanks for the note on the avalanches, and I admit I feel a bit sensitive on that..after all I am seldom brief ya think???? |
13th March 2014, 10:31 PM | #103 | ||
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Deus is precisely how we spell God in portuguese; you could have asked me that one . Quote:
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13th March 2014, 10:34 PM | #104 |
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Ah ... cross posts within two minutes flat
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14th March 2014, 05:20 PM | #105 |
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Salaams all ~ An interesting excursion and vignette into the cultural and traditional influence of the Portuguese upon Sri Lanka is nicely outlined at http://www.lusotopie.sciencespoborde...jayasuriya.pdf
Perhaps more to the point...an outline of the Gannoruwa battle in which the Portuguese were routed is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ki...08-1687%29.jpg and artwork already recorded at forum showing the type of sword is recorded there... Although this is relatively updated artwork it does appear to have been copied from a 1693 book thus may well be accurate and in describing the lodgement of the kings sword "A Kastane" in the national shrine ...after the battle. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 14th March 2014 at 07:38 PM. |
15th March 2014, 02:17 PM | #106 |
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Some additional images with kasthana to add to Ibrahiim's - from Herport 1669 (drummers) and Knox 1681 the Knox illustrations were done by an artist in Europe with instructions from the author so the limitations in the similarity of the Kasthana can be attributed to that; as similar mild omissions are seen in other aspects of the illustration as well, but the lion headed hilt and the typical Kasthana scabbard is distinct in the illustration
regards Prasanna |
15th March 2014, 03:46 PM | #107 | |
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15th March 2014, 04:02 PM | #108 | |
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Salaams Prasanna ~ Excellent artwork in support of this entire document. As you point out however this is "directed artwork" but nontheless important since it does show the king with his Kastane and I assume the same weapon that was donated to the shrine. The artwork of similar detail at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ki...08-1687%29.jpg also shows the monumental and ornate "sash" which also appears down the centuries from which the Kastane is hung. It would be interesting to determine at what point or bracket in time the blade of the Kastane changed from straight to curved...and in a previous post you alluded to that phenomena... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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15th March 2014, 05:11 PM | #109 |
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Fernando; I believe that is an omission by the artist who had not seen the kasthana himself. Similar errors abound in his work but there is also much that can be corroborated with known sources to give a level of credibility to the material included.
Ibrahiim the image of King Rajasinge II is also from Knox- and by the same artist as the illustration I included. both the I and II Rajasinhe’s had a habit of donating swords to both Buddhist and Hindu temples as tokens of battle victories. but from what I have seen is quite often these turn out to be Portuguese swords possibly belonging to the vanquished enemy captains. I am not sure if King Rajasinghe II sword has properly been identified in collections yet. Knox remained a captive in Kandy for near 2 decades and had audience with the King on many occasions- so his description could be believed Regards Prasanna |
15th March 2014, 05:16 PM | #110 |
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Ibrahiim; Just to note that except in the case of Kings and then later era mudelliers serving under colonial masters- Kashane was not worn on a sash, but hung from the belt usually with a spring loaded clip or a loop on the scabbard.
Prasanna |
15th March 2014, 05:58 PM | #111 | |
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There is an interesting note in a description of Knox in captivity which states: Quote " Describing the King’s palace, he says: "I will not adventure to declare further the contents of his treasuries, lest I may be guilty of a mistake. " Unquote. That I find a great pity since he did not spend half an afternoon describing the Kastane!! If only? Readers can see a full account at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Knox_%28sailor%29 and many others simply by keying in "Knox in Sri Lanka"..interesting that his adventures inspired Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe .. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 15th March 2014 at 06:33 PM. |
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16th March 2014, 03:50 AM | #112 |
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Including an image carved by a Portuguese artist currently at the Maha Saman Devala (temple) premises in Rathnapura. the stone carving depict the Portuguese captain slaying a local chief. There is some doubt as to who is the fallen warrior, (may be Fernando or someone versed in Portuguese could attempt to decipher the attached text. ) interestingly the fallen warrior carries a lion headed- single edged blade with similarities to Kasthana. the guards and quillons are not clear- either due to not being present, hidden or artists omissions. The image is dated circa 1610-1650
Regards Prasanna |
16th March 2014, 03:53 PM | #113 | |
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Salaams Prasanna..Tantalising also is the shape of the blade...Whose form is so similar to the Sendai Museum blade...!! I place below a Knox addition showing the warrior to the right with an apparent Kastane also. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 16th March 2014 at 04:47 PM. |
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16th March 2014, 04:12 PM | #114 |
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At forst sight, this is more a problem of visibility than one of language. Sadly most words are unreadable in the picture.
But i can advance Prasana that, this may not be a slay scene but a surrender one. I think i discern the letters that compose "surrender" or its derivations (Render, Rendição) and, if you look at the picture with such focusing, you will realize this seems to make some sense. Maybe also the word India can be read ? I promise i will burn my eyelashes to go deeper into this... and also spot some citation to a surrender in the pages i can access. . Last edited by fernando; 16th March 2014 at 07:06 PM. |
16th March 2014, 05:43 PM | #115 |
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Salaams All.. A note on Iron Production which though it may have been slowed and disrupted by Colonial interference through cheaper imports was by no means totally stopped..Knox writes ~
Quote " Their Manufactures are few: some Callicoes, not so fine as good strong Cloth for their own use: all manner of Iron Tools for Smiths, and Carpenters, and Husbandmen: all sorts of earthen ware to boil, stew, fry and fetch water in, Goldsmith’s work, Painter’s Work, carved work, making Steel, and good Guns, and the like. But their Art in ordering the Iron-Stone and making Iron, may deserve to be a little insisted on. For the Countrey affords plenty of Iron, which they make of Stones, that are in several places of the Land; they lay not very deep in the ground, it may be, about four or five or six foot deep. How they make Iron.First, They take these Stones, and lay them in an heap, and burn them with wood, which makes them more soft and fitter for the Furnace. When they have so done they have a kind of Furnace, made with a white sort of Clay, wherein they put a quantity of Charcoal, and then these Stones on them, and on the top more Charcoal. There is a back to the Furnace, like as there is to a Smith’s Forge, behind which the man stands that blows, the use of which back is to keep the heat of the fire from him. Behind the Furnace they have two logs of Wood placed fast in the ground, hollow at the top, like two pots. Upon the mouths of these two pieces of hollow wood they tie a piece of a Deers Skin, on each pot a piece, with a small hole as big as a man’s finger in each skin. In the middle of each skin a little beside the holes are two strings tied fast to as many sticks stuck in the ground, like a Spring, bending like a bow. This pulls the skin upwards. The man that blows stand with his feet, one on each pot, covering each hole with the soles of his feet. And as he treads on one pot, and presseth the skin down, he takes his foot off the other, which presently by the help of the Spring riseth; and the doing so alternately conveys a great quantity of wind thro the Pipes into the Furnace. For there are also two Pipes made of hollow reed let in to the sides of the Pots, that are to conduct the wind, like the nose of a Bellows, into the Furnace. For the ease of the Blower, there is a strap, that is fastned to two posts, and comes round behind him, on which he leans his back: and he has a stick laid cross-ways before him, on which he lays both his hands, and so he blows with greater ease. As the Stones are thus burning, the dross that is in them melts and runs out at the bottom, where there is a slanting hole made for the purpose so big as the lump of Iron may pass thro: out of this hole, I say, runs out the dross like streams of fire, and the Iron remains behind. Which when it is purified, as they think, enough, so that there comes no more dross away, they drive this lump of Iron thro the same sloping hole. Then they give it a chop with an Ax half thro, and so sling it into the water. They so chop it, that it may be seen that it is good, Iron for the Satisfaction of those that are minded to buy". Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
16th March 2014, 06:41 PM | #116 |
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Kastane and Piha Kheata (I assume). Worn by Nobles.
Salaams All, At last a description by Knox in his book which can be fully read on line at...
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14346 and in which he describes the nobility and what they wear..viz; Quote"The Nobles in their best Apparel.The Habit of the men when they appear abroad is after this sort. The Nobles wear Doublets of white or blew Callico, and about their middle a cloth, a white one next their skin, and a blew one or of some other colour or painted, over the white: a blew or shash girt about their loyns, and a Knife with a carved handle wrought or inlaid with Silver sticking in their bosom; and a compleat short Hanger carved and inlaid with Brass and Silver by their sides, the Scabbard most part covered with Silver; bravely ingraven; a painted Cane and sometimes a Tuck in it in their hands, and a boy always bare-headed with long hair hanging down his back waiting upon him, ever holding a small bag in his hand, which is instead of a Pocket, wherein is Betel-leaves and nuts. Which they constantly keep chewing in their mouths, with Lime kept in a Silver Box rarely engraven, which commonly they hold in their hands, in shape like a Silver Watch". Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
16th March 2014, 06:47 PM | #117 |
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By the way
Tell me Prasana: Why do you call the Portuguese soldier a Captain ... do you know he had such rank, or you just used term in a abstract manner ?
I amalso curious in that, when i saved the images to 'work' on them, the name shown in them was "Pinhão" for the first one, "Pinhão-sword" for the second and "Pinhão-inscription" for the third. Just for curiosity, i browsed on Pinhão in Ceylon and i found a Captain Fernão Pinhão whom, under command of Captain-General Jorge de Albuquerque was in charge of the reinforcement works of the fortification of Galle, by 1623. I notice that Rathnapura is not so far from Galle. Most probably this is a coincidence ... interesting, nevertheless . |
16th March 2014, 09:09 PM | #118 |
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There is no smoke without fire
So the Captain was indeed Pinhão; not Fernão but Simão.
And, as i have previously discerned, both words SURRENDER and INDIA are in the inscription . Say Prasanna, did you know this paper ? The inscribed mural stone at Maha Saman Devale, Ratnapura by Donald Ferguson (1899). ... Let into a niche in the basement of the raised quadrangle, a little to the north of the flight of steps leading from the outer courtyard, is a mural stone of some historic value, and of singular interest from the strange and unexpected position in which it is found. On it, sculptured in bold relief, are two figures about half the size of life. They represent the closing event of a mortal combat between a Portuguese, armed cap-a-pie, and a Sinhalese warrior. Conquered in the encounter, the latter has been stricken down ; his sword and shield are cast despairingly aside ; and his antagonist, trampling under foot his pros- trate form, is now with one final blow about to deprive him of his life. The inscription below, partly in Roman and partly in Sinhalese characters, is so much effaced as to be only very partially readable ;. some portions of the figures are also damaged, seemingly from the action of the weather upon the stone. The whole is, however, most spiritedly- executed, and enough of the inscription remains to show that the name of the Portuguese soldier was Gomez. The Sinhalese say the prostrate warrior was their champion, one Kuruwita Bandara, a dreaded enemy of the Portuguese, whose soldiers he had repeatedly cut off, and that some fifty had fallen by his hand ere he himself was slain. The sculpture was no doubt executed in Europe by royal or vice-regal command, and sent hither to do honour to the soldier whose valorous deed it commemorated. The above is the only reference to this stone that I have met with in the many writers on Ceylon — Portuguese, Dutch, and English — whose works I have searched for information regarding it ; and yet it is undoubtedly some three centuries old ; though how long it has heen in its present position, and whether it was originally placed near the spot it now occupies, are questions which may well arise in one's mind. Mr. Skeen's description contains several errors. I think it more probable that the sculpture was executed in Ceylon, where there would be no lack of artists in the Portuguese ranks competent for the work. There are no Sinhalese characters in the inscription, which is entirely in Portuguese. Moreover the name of the Portuguese warrior (who is hardly " armed cap-a-pie") was not Gomez, though any one ignorant of Portuguese might easily conclude so from deciphering the first few letters-. The inscription, so far as I have been able to decipher it, is as follows (I expand the contractions, and separate the combined letters): — COM • EST A* • RENDl • ESTEf * HA ■ 23J ■ ANNOS • QVE ■ ANDO • NA • INDIA • E • HA ■ 15 J • QVE • SIRVO • DE • CA PITAO • E • TAOQVE§ • OS • REIS ... DE ... E • ■ REI ■ DE • IAFANAPATAO • EV- SIMAO- PINHAO • VENCI * Scil. espada. f Scil. homem, J Conjectural. § Or ao que 1 Transcript: [Com esta rendi este, ha 23 (?) annos que ando na India, e ha 15 (?) que sirvo de capitao ; e taoque (?) os reis...de... (?) e o rei de Jafanapatao, eu Simao Pinhao o venci.] Translation: With this [sword] I overcame this [man], it being 23 (?) years that I have been in India, and 15 (?) that I have served as captain ; and as soon as (?) the kings and the king of Jafanapatao, I, Simao Pinhao, conquered him. " |
17th March 2014, 02:45 AM | #119 |
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Yes it is known that the Portuguese warrior was Pinhao. Thanks Fernando for putting much time in to this. I had not seen this particular paper but seen Similar ones. there are 3 interpretations circulating so I was interested in trying to get some independant confirmation. , some say it is Samarakoon rala/Kuruwita Bandara others say it was Rathnayaka mudiyanse and 3rd it was the king of Jaffna. each interpretation given by people with good standing, so only the text shall say for sure. The key is if the word Jaffnapato is really there that will rule out the other two.
There was a Portuguese fort for a time close to the Saman devale premises. this was possibly erected there and later moved to the devale after destruction of the fort. Sri Lanka is a small country so warriors were deployed all over the place. Regards and thanks Prasanna |
17th March 2014, 06:23 PM | #120 |
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Salaams All...
The Sendai Museum exhibits a potentially original early Kastane blade see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14998 where the weapon is discussed in depth...collected intact, by chance in the Philipines, by the Japanese diplomat and Samurai Hasekura Tsunenaga and this may be backed up by the stone carving with identical form below and expertly presented at post #112. The Storta style of blade whilst intriguing, puzzling and stunning!! may have been introduced earlier, though, that is pure conjecture but in line with the hypothesis on European blade diffusion / the Moors /etc. The interesting reverse theory that this shape of blade may in fact be of the early home grown form and occasionally favoured by warriors without the Vajra Quillons perhaps so that the index finger could be looped over the guard for added purchase power on the thick backblade? Perhaps quillons were optional? (Though it is not without possibility that this was simply artistic stone carvers artistic impression the other details in the carving seem very accurate) Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th March 2014 at 07:17 PM. |
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