Wootz ingots, where do they all come from?

Jens Nordlunde · 13th November 2005, 11:11 AM

Jeff, what you write, and show, is most interesting, and I am sure it is new to most, if not all, the readers of this thread. The word wootz has, to collectors of Oriental arms, had an almost magical spell to it, you have however made the magic spell evaporate, and leave us with ‘Wootz is not wootz, unless it is wootz – of course’.

We, the collectors, should have been able to figure out, that ‘industrial trash steel’ in some case would produce a ‘kind’ of wootz if treated the right way, although I think few of us have thought along this lane.

Your explanation, about the way the pattern show, is very good and easy to follow, even for a layman, who has never worked with iron/wootz/steel. The pictures you show illustrates very well what you write in the text, and the two blades are very nice.

Please show us pictures of the whole knives.

Jens

Mare Rosu · 13th November 2005, 05:50 PM

Jens/Jeff
This is a link to an eBay item (Andrew it is closed

)The blade looks somewhat like wootz. I think the picture has way to much contrast to really show the pattern naturally. I don't think you could or should cut a bolt with it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7178995092

Gene
Update:
Scan down to the bottom of the listing and read some of the questions asked and the answers, also click on the "MORE" links. I do not read Russian, but the pictures look interesting.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th November 2005, 06:08 PM

Gene, I agree, this looks very strange, there is however a small chance that it could be the photo. On the other hand one would think the seller would get the best photos - but it has been seen before.

Jens

Rick · 13th November 2005, 06:50 PM

Those sure look like hacksaw cuts in that bolt to me .

I also followed the link to the other pictures ; I don't know what's being attempted with the nail in the vise photo but I can assure you that trying to hold a nail by its head in a vise and expect it to not move around under any kind of pressure is futile .

Just my personal opinion , YMMV .

Jeff Pringle · 13th November 2005, 11:21 PM

Gene –the blades are of my own crucible steel, and thanks for the compliment!
I just forged out one mill ball into a bar, because it is surprising and interesting to me that there are these modern items that are similar to wootz, and that someone would start selling them as wootz.
I think the collector community will need to be on the lookout for more convincing fakes as the awareness of how wootz was made spreads.

Quote:

The word wootz has, to collectors of Oriental arms, had an almost magical spell to it, you have however made the magic spell evaporate, and leave us with ‘Wootz is not wootz, unless it is wootz – of course’

Jens, I hope the magic hasn’t really evaporated! Those beautiful antique blades are still magic to me, even as I try to understand how they were made. The magic might get a little obscured if you start trying to nail down every molecule and assign everything into boxes, but those blades are still amazingly sharp, flexible and mysterious, and it is still very difficult to make modern steel that matches them.
These are the photos of complete knives I have on line now:
Persian style:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~jlp3/...Persian15a.jpg

Modern style:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~jlp3/...wootzQT07s.jpg

Regarding the russian knife, yes, it looks like the contemporary russian bulat in grain structure from the picture.
The pictured tests are supposed to show how macho the metal is - hammer it thru a bolt w/o damage - this would have been impressive, but I recently saw a photo of the same thing done with a hardened railroad spike, which are not extra-special steel, or even high carbon.
Shave a nail - This is also not a big deal, any knife that is correctly heat treated will pull a curl of metal off a nail w/o damage. I do this test with all my knives.
Scratch glass - that's a good one, ultra-high-carbon wootz should be able to scratch glass and still be as flexible as a regular knife.
Now if he was doing the paper cuts after all that, without re-sharpening, that'd be a damn fine knife, but I don't know the order of the tests.
My three cents

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 14th November 2005, 03:14 PM

Jeff, don’t worry there is still quite a lot of magic left, and I think the old blades are fantastic. With the warning you have given us, I think it must be getting difficult selling on a place like eBay. See also what Ric. Furrer writes on SFI http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=59076

Jens Nordlunde · 14th November 2005, 05:08 PM

Here is a bit of magic

.

13th November 2005, 11:11 AM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jeff, what you write, and show, is most interesting, and I am sure it is new to most, if not all, the readers of this thread. The word wootz has, to collectors of Oriental arms, had an almost magical spell to it, you have however made the magic spell evaporate, and leave us with ‘Wootz is not wootz, unless it is wootz – of course’. We, the collectors, should have been able to figure out, that ‘industrial trash steel’ in some case would produce a ‘kind’ of wootz if treated the right way, although I think few of us have thought along this lane. Your explanation, about the way the pattern show, is very good and easy to follow, even for a layman, who has never worked with iron/wootz/steel. The pictures you show illustrates very well what you write in the text, and the two blades are very nice. Please show us pictures of the whole knives. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 13th November 2005 at 11:26 AM.

13th November 2005, 05:50 PM	#2
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Bulat, Wootz Jens/Jeff This is a link to an eBay item (Andrew it is closed )The blade looks somewhat like wootz. I think the picture has way to much contrast to really show the pattern naturally. I don't think you could or should cut a bolt with it. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7178995092 Gene Update: Scan down to the bottom of the listing and read some of the questions asked and the answers, also click on the "MORE" links. I do not read Russian, but the pictures look interesting. Last edited by Mare Rosu; 13th November 2005 at 06:06 PM.

13th November 2005, 06:50 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,288	Those sure look like hacksaw cuts in that bolt to me . I also followed the link to the other pictures ; I don't know what's being attempted with the nail in the vise photo but I can assure you that trying to hold a nail by its head in a vise and expect it to not move around under any kind of pressure is futile . Just my personal opinion , YMMV . Last edited by Rick; 13th November 2005 at 07:05 PM.

14th November 2005, 05:08 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is a bit of magic. Attached Images

13th November 2005, 06:08 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, I agree, this looks very strange, there is however a small chance that it could be the photo. On the other hand one would think the seller would get the best photos - but it has been seen before. Jens

14th November 2005, 03:14 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jeff, don’t worry there is still quite a lot of magic left, and I think the old blades are fantastic. With the warning you have given us, I think it must be getting difficult selling on a place like eBay. See also what Ric. Furrer writes on SFI http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=59076