Tulwar with ladder pattern

[DaveS]

Here for comment is a tulwar with a pattern-welded ladder blade. The blade is 29 inches long, 34 inches overall. The gold overlay on the handle is about 80 percent intact. The scabbard shows a lot of wear but it is pretty much all there Any ideas on age? I'm thinking somewhere around the middle 1800s..........Dave.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Dave,
I'm surprised that no-one has commented on this yet, let's hope our Indian experts see this soon and can supply you with an educated opinion something that I am sadly not qualified to do.
Regards,
Norman.

[archer]

Hi Dave, I finally found some photos of similar blades. Two are different areas of the same blade not as nice as yours but, of the same type of patterns. I've read I think by more than on author that Laddering can occur naturally?? I'm leaning toward the consistency of repeated blows causing the patterns. The third photo here is sort of like double laddering but surely caused by repeated blows needed to shape the arc in the blade. That's my guess for what it's worth. Steve

[RSWORD]

I would not refer to the pattern on these blades as "ladder pattern". Typically, a ladder pattern is on a wootz blade, with ladder "rungs" that stretch the length of the blade in a regular and repeating way. Dave's blade is not wootz. It is a pattern welded blade and while you do have a repeating pattern, it is not what I would consider a ladder pattern. I do believe the pattern created here is a manipulation of the layered blade. Same on a ladder pattern in wootz. It is manipulated through the forging process. It certainly takes a bit of skill to forge, fold, manipulate and hammer out a pattern welded blade where you get such a bold pattern. While not what I would consider as a ladder pattern blade, it is a lovely example of Indian pattern welding. As far as an estimation of age, I would guess Dave's tulwar to be early to mid 19th century.

[DaveS]

Ron, Steve: Thanks for your input. I have heard that a ladder pattern should contain forty steps representing the forty steps to Allah. It seems when I count I get either 38, 39, or even 41. It's difficult on this blade because not all the steps are that easy to see. Also I don't know if the "true" ladder is strictly confined to wootz and I wish I could remember where it was stated that it also occurs on purpose in a layered blade....Dave

[ALEX]

Agree with RSWORD. The blade is of mechanical damascus and laddering does not apply to this pattern. What appear to be ladders are part of the pattern.

[Richard Furrer]

I agree with the age estimate and mechanical pattern-welding, but it is a ladder pattern. There are but a few ways to make this effect and there is overlap between this and the wootz laddering technique.

Ric

[DaveS]

Ric: Thanks for your input. I've always heard that a ladder pattern was a ladder pattern, wether it was in wootz or mechanical Damascus, That it wasn't just restricted to wootz blades.........Dave.

[archer]

Hi Dave S,
Rics input inspired Me to look again. Our hilts are very similar, so, maybe they are related. Does your blade have any markings? One side on mine is fairly a fairly distinct pattern the other more blurred. Some photos what do you think? Steve

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I agree with the age estimate and mechanical pattern-welding, but it is a ladder pattern. There are but a few ways to make this effect and there is overlap between this and the wootz laddering technique.

Ric

Ladders on wootz are specifically made as "stand-alone", separate lines. With the above pattern, the ladders are not made as such. They are separators between the circular-shaped patterns.... now as I mentioned it: shall we call it a rose pattern?
It is certainly a ladder effect, but I do not see an overlap apart from "appearance!" of a ladder. The techniques are totally different. Can this really be called a ladder pattern?

[DaveS]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Ladders on wootz are specifically made as "stand-alone", separate lines. With the above pattern, the ladders are not made as such. They are separators between the circular-shaped patterns.... now as I mentioned it: shall we call it a rose pattern?
It is certainly a ladder effect, but I do not see an overlap apart from "appearance!" of a ladder. The techniques are totally different. Can this really be called a ladder pattern?

Alex: I really don't understand how on a wootz pattern a ladder is specifically made as "stand alone", but on a layer welded blade you call the lines "separators. Seems to me they are doing the same thing, acting as ladders. I would definitely call Archers tulwar a ladder-patterned blade. If it were mine though I would give it a darker etch for better contrast.....Dave.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by DaveS

Alex: I really don't understand how on a wootz pattern a ladder is specifically made as "stand alone", but on a layer welded blade you call the lines "separators. Seems to me they are doing the same thing, acting as ladders. I would definitely call Archers tulwar a ladder-patterned blade. If it were mine though I would give it a darker etch for better contrast.....Dave.

one cannot name an Indian tiger eye pattern a rose pattern! Essentially, this pattern is similar in production technique, so calling it ladder pattern based on appearance of lines, and not how they were produced, is similarly incorrect in my opinion. The ladders were not made/incised into metal like they were on wootz blades.

[DaveS]

Originally Posted by ALEX

one cannot name an Indian tiger eye pattern a rose pattern! Essentially, this pattern is similar in production technique, so calling it ladder pattern based on appearance of lines, and not how they were produced, is similarly incorrect in my opinion. The ladders were not made/incised into metal like they were on wootz blades.

As I understand it, and maybe some forum member who are knife makers and do damascus blades would better be able to explain it, I've always thought that one way to produce a ladder was to file across the billet and when the billet was hammered out that then the layers that are underneath will appear as lines across a blade. Essentially, you then have a "ladder". So basically these lines were also made/incised into the metal so why would this not be considered a true ladder pattern? Also one must consider, is this what the smith was intending to produce. Unless we can get into his mind, we just have no way of really knowing.........Dave.

[Sossan]

Originally Posted by DaveS

Ron, Steve: Thanks for your input. I have heard that a ladder pattern should contain forty steps representing the forty steps to Allah. It seems when I count I get either 38, 39, or even 41. It's difficult on this blade because not all the steps are that easy to see. Also I don't know if the "true" ladder is strictly confined to wootz and I wish I could remember where it was stated that it also occurs on purpose in a layered blade....Dave

The 40 steps should not be taken literally. The Laddered Pattern is said to be a representation of the 40 steps of Mohammed and not literally 40 steps in the pattern.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by ALEX

one cannot name an Indian tiger eye pattern a rose pattern! Essentially, this pattern is similar in production technique, so calling it ladder pattern based on appearance of lines, and not how they were produced, is similarly incorrect in my opinion. The ladders were not made/incised into metal like they were on wootz blades.

The difference not being the technique, but rather how the technique is applied. If you wish to have the ladder stand alone or wide bands blend together one needs only alter the technique to produce either.
To list the variables would be time consuming indeed, but they all come from the same base technique.
I understand your point Alex...one of precision using the technique.

Ric