Provenance and wood type of sampir keris

rasdan · 29th December 2004, 03:40 AM

Hi guys,

Attached are pictures of 2 sampir that i dont know the origin. The first (blace) one is kemuning gembol (burl) wood painted black. I just got it a batang fixed. It is said that this sampir is from a bugis keris. However i think it is more like a Pattani sampir, only a thinner version. What do u guys think is it a Bugis sampir? About the type of wood, is kemuning gembol better than the usual kemuning? I only had the opportunity of seeing samples of kemuning gembol 2 times. One on a badik hilt and this is the second one. Frankly, i feel that gembols are lighter the only difference is the burl since it is from the root part. I'll post the pictures of this one after i had cleaned the black laquer.

The second one i know nothing about. Do u guys know what kind of wood is this? It is heavier than average kemuning. What about the provenance?

Your help is highly appreciated. Thank you.

DAHenkel · 29th December 2004, 03:15 PM

Rasdan, the mystery wood is ketenggah. Not particularly rare or unusual but less commonly used than kemuning.

Please do note though that there is no such thing as kemuning gembol per-se. Gembol is a sort of scar tissue that forms on trees that are damaged. Teak (jati) is particularly well known for gembol because it forms solidly and in large enough pieces that it can be used for woodcarving. While no doubt an injured kemuning tree would probably form some sort of scar or gembol, it would likely be too small to use for carving anything as the tree itself is quite small. Rarely more than the thickness of a man's thigh.

Indeed, you should note that Kemuning can really only barely be classified as a tree. A really old, mature Kemuning may be only 10 to 15 feet tall. Its more of a glorified bush really and only the wood below the surface is considered particularly desirable for keris applications, although of course all the wood is used for various other purposes. Kemuning is actually quite common and is often used for hedges. When it flower's, which is fairly frequently, it smells wonderfully - sweet, somewhat like jasmine or honeysuckle. Large, mature plants are very rare and because they are so valuable poachers usually take them from the wild before they are fully ready for use.

The best kemuning wood comes from trees that live in the mountains or right on the coast in rocky, less fertile soil. These plants have had a hard life and have grown very slowly, fighting to put down roots through the tough, unyielding soil. Some people confuse the high figuring of kemuning as gembol but this is actually not so. The best kemuning comes from the root ball of the tree, located at the junction of the roots and trunk. Here, particularly when the tree has had a "hard life", the wood will be heavily twisted and gnarled. Damage from fungus will leave dark striations in the wood. The constant pressure and twisting from the tree swaying in the breeze will compress and accordion the grains leaving the "tiger stripes" or "flames" which kemuning is so famous for.

Both sheaths are in the Pattani style. Definintely not any kind of Bugis, Sulawesi, Straits or otherwise. Fairly young by the look of it - pre WWII but not much more than that. The painted one is not the best I've seen in form and may well not be old, or if it is old it is not the best quality. The fact that its been painted suggests that it was either badly damaged and has been repaired or is new wood and the paint was used to disguise it. You could try cleaning off the paint with thinner but be prepared to be dissapointed by what you find underneath.

rasdan · 30th December 2004, 03:47 AM

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the detailed explaination. That answers a lot of question. We really need some sort of comprehensive guide for sumatran and peninsular kerises. As for the painted sampir, actually i painted it black..hehe its my experiment to find out wheather the grain can be one shade darker. It turns out that the entire wood absorbs same amount of laquer and hence the distinction of the grain more or less are the same only half a shade darker. (U can see i've been working with laquer for some days now... dirty fingernails.. hehe..) I'm almost finished with it and will post the pictures afterwards.

BTW, forgot to ask u, what do u use to dilute French Polish? It is too thick to apply evenly. I purchased it yesterday and it is wonderfull!! The only thing now is to apply it the best way so it looks like sapan. Thank you very much Dave for the tip.

Federico · 30th December 2004, 04:10 AM

French polish is a method of applying lacquer. The lacquer is created by mixing the shell-lac and disolving it in de-natured alcohol. The weight of the mixture is in ratio to the amount of alcohol to shell-lac. Depending on which step you are on in the finishing process, will dictate the weight of the mixture you will use. The base coats will use a heavier weight, while the final coats will be thinner. As for spreading the lacquer, you will need to lubricate you muneca (pad) with a small amount of oil. Some use olive oil. Ideally the amount of lacquer applied via this method should be very very thin, and after multiple layer it will create a very distinctive clear finish.

rasdan · 30th December 2004, 04:42 AM

Hi Fred,

Actually i'm using a ready made french polish. Colron to be accurate. I suppose some turpentine will do the job. Using some oil to lubricate the application..that i havent tried. Will try it tonite. Thanks for the advice.

DAHenkel · 30th December 2004, 07:22 AM

Actually, I use thinner rather than turpentine. I have not tried turpentine but imagine it may make the polish dry very slowly. I have not had good luck with alcohol either as its evaporates too quickly. The only concern with thinner (or alcohol) is that the evaporation causes condensation in the mixture. If you make too big a batch, eventually your polish will go cloudy as water condenses into the mixture. So, I normally only use about a teaspoon of polish and about twice that of thinner at a time. It also helps to do your polishing on a hot, sunny day. Sometimes, Rashidee also will make a small charcoal fire to wave the sampir over as he works but be careful of the ashes.

Also, I prefer to apply with a brush - admittedly a bit unorthodox but I find that with a rubber I have trouble getting into all the nooks and crannies of the sampir properly without making a hash of it.

I also use colron french polish and like it very much. Very convenient and of consistent quality.

rasdan · 30th December 2004, 07:46 AM

Hmm..thinner sounds better. I usually dry this stuff aided with a less patience method.. a hair dryer. hehe.. Thanks again everybody. Yup.. off to the workshop.

rasdan · 4th January 2005, 03:38 AM

Hi guys,

As promised, heres the pictures of the sampir after restoration. Its still too shiny and i'm still trying to get the right sheen using french polish. Too tired to try again now...

Battara · 4th January 2005, 04:02 AM

W W! Love how the grain came out.

Montino Bourbon · 4th January 2005, 06:45 AM

I do hope that you apply french polish and other types of finishing with adequate ventilation! I have a friend that had to stop using that method because he had heart problems from it. Of course he probably did more than you do, because he is a musical instrument tech, but it'd good to be very safe with materials that vaporize.
By the way, the grain looks stunning! you did an excellent job. Remind me to ask you when I need that kind of work done!

rasdan · 4th January 2005, 07:10 AM

Thanks guys. Actually i the wood itself has quite an impressive grain but is not enhanced before. Whoa, i dont know that this sort of thing can cause heart problems. Thanks for the advice Montino, and i will be happy to help anybody in restoration works. Thanks also to Dave for introducing french polish to me.

Federico · 4th January 2005, 10:45 PM

Make sure the drying area is dust free, I can see speckles of dust in the finish. It appears, just a little thick, hence the high shine, but for the first time at it great job. You can try smoothing out the finish/dulling it with #0000 steel wool.

nechesh · 4th January 2005, 10:50 PM

That's a beautiful grain Rasdan. What made you paint it to begin with.

rasdan · 5th January 2005, 02:46 AM

Hi guys,

Thanks for the advice Fred. I'm thinking of redoing the thing all over again, but i've tried more than a couple of time during last weekend, perhaps maybe next week.

Actually, painting (laquer actually) it black is just my experiment to see how much that the colour of the wood could change after the laquer had been cleared. It appeares that it does absorb some laquer but the color change is not quite significant.

DAHenkel · 5th January 2005, 11:20 AM

Hmm, very interesting Rasdan. Your sampir appears to be some other kind of wood rather than kemuning - possibly bongor but I'm not 100% sure. Its a very unusual grain for Kemuning but it would also be extremely rare to use bongor for a sampir. Its normally used for batangs but wood taken from the root area might be suitable for sampir. I shall have to show these pictures to Nik Dee to get his opinion.

rahman · 5th January 2005, 01:51 PM

Mr Henkel... I'm a newcomer to this excellent forum, and a babe in the woods when it comes to keris. Might I ask for your kind instruction on how one might differentiate the sampir here as "Pattani style. Definintely not any kind of Bugis, Sulawesi, Straits or otherwise."?

I was told Pattani sheaths have a distinct Sari Bulan shape. These sheaths, without their ridges, are normally seen as Bugis (against Riau, with ridges).

Thanks.

DAHenkel · 5th January 2005, 03:18 PM

First off, welcome to the forum Encik Rahman.

Actually, the "square-ish" sheath form is virtually ubiquitous across much of the "Malay" world. In fact it is easy to say such sheaths are the most typical Malay keris sheath. On the Peninsula they are normally referred to as a sampir tebeng or sampir Bugis and they probably do have their origins in Sulawesi. However over time the form has spread and today is found in all manner of variant forms and styles. Often it is not particularly easy to differentiate between them.

Pattani and Kelantan keris share many characteristics with each other and are often difficult to tell apart. Both have tebeng sheaths that are only slightly different at base and sometimes are more or less indistinguishable. As a general rule though the Kelantanese tebeng tend to be somewhat more "boxy" and "massive" while Pattani sheaths tend to be slightly less so.

Both Kelantan and Pattani also have the saribulan sheath form.

I'd strongly recommend that you spend some time searching and reading through the posts on this forum as there are many pictures and lots of info.

rahman · 6th January 2005, 03:21 AM

Thank you Mr Henkel for the explanation. Indeed, I have spent the last 2 months going through the past forums to get a fast-track on the keris world. The discussions have been most enlightening.

The squarish sampir presents a real challenge to identify its origin in these parts. I guess it takes an expert eye like yours to tell the subtle differences. I've seen sampirs with ridges at their top (mainly from the sumatra/Riau area) and others with no ridges (mainly from Sulawesi/Bugis). The Malay keris still eludes me, though, and I count you among the foremost experts here.

Thanks again.

rasdan · 6th January 2005, 08:49 AM

All this while i thought it is kemuning. But it is lighter than kemuning despite of the grains. Hope to hear from Dave soon about the type of wood.

Alam Shah · 30th June 2005, 04:52 PM

Rasdan,
Your sampir is Ketengga wood. I've seen bongor wood, the grain is not like yours. It is normally used for batang (as mentioned by Dave).

Bongor wood have a different type of "tiger stripes" pattern.
(Click the underlined Bongor for an example).

(Note: Bongor wood is the one we've seen at your place).

29th December 2004, 03:40 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Provenance and wood type of sampir keris Hi guys, Attached are pictures of 2 sampir that i dont know the origin. The first (blace) one is kemuning gembol (burl) wood painted black. I just got it a batang fixed. It is said that this sampir is from a bugis keris. However i think it is more like a Pattani sampir, only a thinner version. What do u guys think is it a Bugis sampir? About the type of wood, is kemuning gembol better than the usual kemuning? I only had the opportunity of seeing samples of kemuning gembol 2 times. One on a badik hilt and this is the second one. Frankly, i feel that gembols are lighter the only difference is the burl since it is from the root part. I'll post the pictures of this one after i had cleaned the black laquer. The second one i know nothing about. Do u guys know what kind of wood is this? It is heavier than average kemuning. What about the provenance? Your help is highly appreciated. Thank you. Attached Images Last edited by rasdan; 29th December 2004 at 10:22 AM.

29th December 2004, 03:15 PM	#2
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Rasdan, the mystery wood is ketenggah. Not particularly rare or unusual but less commonly used than kemuning. Please do note though that there is no such thing as kemuning gembol per-se. Gembol is a sort of scar tissue that forms on trees that are damaged. Teak (jati) is particularly well known for gembol because it forms solidly and in large enough pieces that it can be used for woodcarving. While no doubt an injured kemuning tree would probably form some sort of scar or gembol, it would likely be too small to use for carving anything as the tree itself is quite small. Rarely more than the thickness of a man's thigh. Indeed, you should note that Kemuning can really only barely be classified as a tree. A really old, mature Kemuning may be only 10 to 15 feet tall. Its more of a glorified bush really and only the wood below the surface is considered particularly desirable for keris applications, although of course all the wood is used for various other purposes. Kemuning is actually quite common and is often used for hedges. When it flower's, which is fairly frequently, it smells wonderfully - sweet, somewhat like jasmine or honeysuckle. Large, mature plants are very rare and because they are so valuable poachers usually take them from the wild before they are fully ready for use. The best kemuning wood comes from trees that live in the mountains or right on the coast in rocky, less fertile soil. These plants have had a hard life and have grown very slowly, fighting to put down roots through the tough, unyielding soil. Some people confuse the high figuring of kemuning as gembol but this is actually not so. The best kemuning comes from the root ball of the tree, located at the junction of the roots and trunk. Here, particularly when the tree has had a "hard life", the wood will be heavily twisted and gnarled. Damage from fungus will leave dark striations in the wood. The constant pressure and twisting from the tree swaying in the breeze will compress and accordion the grains leaving the "tiger stripes" or "flames" which kemuning is so famous for. Both sheaths are in the Pattani style. Definintely not any kind of Bugis, Sulawesi, Straits or otherwise. Fairly young by the look of it - pre WWII but not much more than that. The painted one is not the best I've seen in form and may well not be old, or if it is old it is not the best quality. The fact that its been painted suggests that it was either badly damaged and has been repaired or is new wood and the paint was used to disguise it. You could try cleaning off the paint with thinner but be prepared to be dissapointed by what you find underneath. Last edited by DAHenkel; 29th December 2004 at 03:41 PM.

4th January 2005, 03:38 AM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi guys, As promised, heres the pictures of the sampir after restoration. Its still too shiny and i'm still trying to get the right sheen using french polish. Too tired to try again now... Attached Images

30th June 2005, 04:52 PM	#20
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Wood type... Rasdan, Your sampir is Ketengga wood. I've seen bongor wood, the grain is not like yours. It is normally used for batang (as mentioned by Dave). Bongor wood have a different type of "tiger stripes" pattern. (Click the underlined Bongor for an example). (Note: Bongor wood is the one we've seen at your place).

30th December 2004, 03:47 AM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Dave, Thanks for the detailed explaination. That answers a lot of question. We really need some sort of comprehensive guide for sumatran and peninsular kerises. As for the painted sampir, actually i painted it black..hehe its my experiment to find out wheather the grain can be one shade darker. It turns out that the entire wood absorbs same amount of laquer and hence the distinction of the grain more or less are the same only half a shade darker. (U can see i've been working with laquer for some days now... dirty fingernails.. hehe..) I'm almost finished with it and will post the pictures afterwards. BTW, forgot to ask u, what do u use to dilute French Polish? It is too thick to apply evenly. I purchased it yesterday and it is wonderfull!! The only thing now is to apply it the best way so it looks like sapan. Thank you very much Dave for the tip.

30th December 2004, 04:10 AM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	French polish is a method of applying lacquer. The lacquer is created by mixing the shell-lac and disolving it in de-natured alcohol. The weight of the mixture is in ratio to the amount of alcohol to shell-lac. Depending on which step you are on in the finishing process, will dictate the weight of the mixture you will use. The base coats will use a heavier weight, while the final coats will be thinner. As for spreading the lacquer, you will need to lubricate you muneca (pad) with a small amount of oil. Some use olive oil. Ideally the amount of lacquer applied via this method should be very very thin, and after multiple layer it will create a very distinctive clear finish.

30th December 2004, 04:42 AM	#5
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Fred, Actually i'm using a ready made french polish. Colron to be accurate. I suppose some turpentine will do the job. Using some oil to lubricate the application..that i havent tried. Will try it tonite. Thanks for the advice.

30th December 2004, 07:22 AM	#6
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Actually, I use thinner rather than turpentine. I have not tried turpentine but imagine it may make the polish dry very slowly. I have not had good luck with alcohol either as its evaporates too quickly. The only concern with thinner (or alcohol) is that the evaporation causes condensation in the mixture. If you make too big a batch, eventually your polish will go cloudy as water condenses into the mixture. So, I normally only use about a teaspoon of polish and about twice that of thinner at a time. It also helps to do your polishing on a hot, sunny day. Sometimes, Rashidee also will make a small charcoal fire to wave the sampir over as he works but be careful of the ashes. Also, I prefer to apply with a brush - admittedly a bit unorthodox but I find that with a rubber I have trouble getting into all the nooks and crannies of the sampir properly without making a hash of it. I also use colron french polish and like it very much. Very convenient and of consistent quality.

30th December 2004, 07:46 AM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hmm..thinner sounds better. I usually dry this stuff aided with a less patience method.. a hair dryer. hehe.. Thanks again everybody. Yup.. off to the workshop.

4th January 2005, 04:02 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	W W! Love how the grain came out.

4th January 2005, 06:45 AM	#10
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	I do hope that you apply french polish and other types of finishing with adequate ventilation! I have a friend that had to stop using that method because he had heart problems from it. Of course he probably did more than you do, because he is a musical instrument tech, but it'd good to be very safe with materials that vaporize. By the way, the grain looks stunning! you did an excellent job. Remind me to ask you when I need that kind of work done!

4th January 2005, 07:10 AM	#11
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Thanks guys. Actually i the wood itself has quite an impressive grain but is not enhanced before. Whoa, i dont know that this sort of thing can cause heart problems. Thanks for the advice Montino, and i will be happy to help anybody in restoration works. Thanks also to Dave for introducing french polish to me.

4th January 2005, 10:45 PM	#12
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Make sure the drying area is dust free, I can see speckles of dust in the finish. It appears, just a little thick, hence the high shine, but for the first time at it great job. You can try smoothing out the finish/dulling it with #0000 steel wool.

4th January 2005, 10:50 PM	#13
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	That's a beautiful grain Rasdan. What made you paint it to begin with.

5th January 2005, 02:46 AM	#14
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi guys, Thanks for the advice Fred. I'm thinking of redoing the thing all over again, but i've tried more than a couple of time during last weekend, perhaps maybe next week. Actually, painting (laquer actually) it black is just my experiment to see how much that the colour of the wood could change after the laquer had been cleared. It appeares that it does absorb some laquer but the color change is not quite significant.

5th January 2005, 11:20 AM	#15
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Hmm, very interesting Rasdan. Your sampir appears to be some other kind of wood rather than kemuning - possibly bongor but I'm not 100% sure. Its a very unusual grain for Kemuning but it would also be extremely rare to use bongor for a sampir. Its normally used for batangs but wood taken from the root area might be suitable for sampir. I shall have to show these pictures to Nik Dee to get his opinion.

5th January 2005, 01:51 PM	#16
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Mr Henkel... I'm a newcomer to this excellent forum, and a babe in the woods when it comes to keris. Might I ask for your kind instruction on how one might differentiate the sampir here as "Pattani style. Definintely not any kind of Bugis, Sulawesi, Straits or otherwise."? I was told Pattani sheaths have a distinct Sari Bulan shape. These sheaths, without their ridges, are normally seen as Bugis (against Riau, with ridges). Thanks.

5th January 2005, 03:18 PM	#17
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	First off, welcome to the forum Encik Rahman. Actually, the "square-ish" sheath form is virtually ubiquitous across much of the "Malay" world. In fact it is easy to say such sheaths are the most typical Malay keris sheath. On the Peninsula they are normally referred to as a sampir tebeng or sampir Bugis and they probably do have their origins in Sulawesi. However over time the form has spread and today is found in all manner of variant forms and styles. Often it is not particularly easy to differentiate between them. Pattani and Kelantan keris share many characteristics with each other and are often difficult to tell apart. Both have tebeng sheaths that are only slightly different at base and sometimes are more or less indistinguishable. As a general rule though the Kelantanese tebeng tend to be somewhat more "boxy" and "massive" while Pattani sheaths tend to be slightly less so. Both Kelantan and Pattani also have the saribulan sheath form. I'd strongly recommend that you spend some time searching and reading through the posts on this forum as there are many pictures and lots of info.

6th January 2005, 03:21 AM	#18
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Thank you Mr Henkel for the explanation. Indeed, I have spent the last 2 months going through the past forums to get a fast-track on the keris world. The discussions have been most enlightening. The squarish sampir presents a real challenge to identify its origin in these parts. I guess it takes an expert eye like yours to tell the subtle differences. I've seen sampirs with ridges at their top (mainly from the sumatra/Riau area) and others with no ridges (mainly from Sulawesi/Bugis). The Malay keris still eludes me, though, and I count you among the foremost experts here. Thanks again.

6th January 2005, 08:49 AM	#19
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	All this while i thought it is kemuning. But it is lighter than kemuning despite of the grains. Hope to hear from Dave soon about the type of wood.