yataghan and dhal

Miyamoto · 1st November 2005, 10:03 PM

Ebay auctions Nr. 6573057456 and 6573196798 just ended.
Both seems quite new to me from the photos...

What do you think about them?

Battara · 2nd November 2005, 05:25 AM

I'm with you on this. In India they are making new dhals, kards, katars, etc. like this. I have rarely seen koftgari work that incorporates both silver and gold together. Certainly this example is a little too shiney - no patina on the silver nor wear on any surface what so ever.

I was looking at the yataghan. It may be older, but with a replaced forte on it. Don't know of many repo yataghans yet .

However, the stamp on the blade does bother me.

Miyamoto · 2nd November 2005, 07:30 AM

Yes I think also that the dhal is to shiny. However if you take a closer look to it you'll be able to notice, that there are areas where the gold washing faded away and traces of wear... That means that it could be an old one, that has been cleaned and lucidatet extensively and mybe using a flaslight to photograph it. It has also some "battle dings". I've also taken a closer look to the ones produced in India recently and they just don't look the same. I have a verry divided opinion on thatone.
Is here someone who can confirm the age of thatone?

The yat, seems fairly new. That marking on the blade seems verry strange. I never saw a similar mark on the blade of a yat. The forte seems incredibly raw and plain looking for a period yat. However I'm not an expert of non-Balkan yataghans. It could be period south turkish? The pommel is similar to the turkish "T" yat. However I never had one of those in my hand.

Repro yathagans exists. They are produced (or were produced till the end of the 80s') in Sarajevo by local silversmiths. They are fairly easy to spot and made entirely of metal and they have large portions of filigran work, including the scabbard. They usually have also verry patinated, black looking, verry thin blade with gold decor. I will post a photo in the afternoon. However that yataghan in particular does not look to be one of them.

TVV · 2nd November 2005, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I was looking at the yataghan. It may be older, but with a replaced forte on it. Don't know of many repo yataghans yet .

However, the stamp on the blade does bother me.

I personally cannot say for sure if this particular yataghan is repro or not just because of a strange marking on its blade, but there are plenty of repro yataghans, I have seen them by the douzens in Sofia. I even think we had a topic discussing one such piece here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=yataghan
There are master bladesmiths in every country, including Eastern Europe. The difference is in the demand (and consequently pricing) of well made historical replicas here and there. It is not wise to go into details about what distinguishes originals from misrepresented replicas, as it helps fakers improve (and the ones I know of are pretty good anyway), but I just wanted to warn you that nowadays yataghans and kindjals are far from fakeproof.

Aqtai · 2nd November 2005, 01:43 PM

I know that real dhals, in order to be used, would have a lining on the back and a square "cushion" in the centre as well as handles/straps. I'm not sure how they were attached though, presumably they were glued in place.

Are there any traces of glue there?

Interior of an 18th century Indian dhal in the Royal Armouries, Leeds:

Miyamoto · 2nd November 2005, 05:45 PM

and here is another "pearl" from the same seller (yataghan): Ebay auction number 6572889428.

1st November 2005, 10:03 PM	#1
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	yataghan and dhal Ebay auctions Nr. 6573057456 and 6573196798 just ended. Both seems quite new to me from the photos... What do you think about them? Attached Images

2nd November 2005, 07:30 AM	#3
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Yes I think also that the dhal is to shiny. However if you take a closer look to it you'll be able to notice, that there are areas where the gold washing faded away and traces of wear... That means that it could be an old one, that has been cleaned and lucidatet extensively and mybe using a flaslight to photograph it. It has also some "battle dings". I've also taken a closer look to the ones produced in India recently and they just don't look the same. I have a verry divided opinion on thatone. Is here someone who can confirm the age of thatone? The yat, seems fairly new. That marking on the blade seems verry strange. I never saw a similar mark on the blade of a yat. The forte seems incredibly raw and plain looking for a period yat. However I'm not an expert of non-Balkan yataghans. It could be period south turkish? The pommel is similar to the turkish "T" yat. However I never had one of those in my hand. Repro yathagans exists. They are produced (or were produced till the end of the 80s') in Sarajevo by local silversmiths. They are fairly easy to spot and made entirely of metal and they have large portions of filigran work, including the scabbard. They usually have also verry patinated, black looking, verry thin blade with gold decor. I will post a photo in the afternoon. However that yataghan in particular does not look to be one of them. Last edited by Miyamoto; 2nd November 2005 at 10:22 AM.

2nd November 2005, 05:45 PM	#6
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	and here is another "pearl" from the same seller (yataghan): Ebay auction number 6572889428. Attached Images

2nd November 2005, 05:25 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	I'm with you on this. In India they are making new dhals, kards, katars, etc. like this. I have rarely seen koftgari work that incorporates both silver and gold together. Certainly this example is a little too shiney - no patina on the silver nor wear on any surface what so ever. I was looking at the yataghan. It may be older, but with a replaced forte on it. Don't know of many repo yataghans yet . However, the stamp on the blade does bother me.

2nd November 2005, 01:43 PM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I know that real dhals, in order to be used, would have a lining on the back and a square "cushion" in the centre as well as handles/straps. I'm not sure how they were attached though, presumably they were glued in place. Are there any traces of glue there? Interior of an 18th century Indian dhal in the Royal Armouries, Leeds: