"Archaic" Twisted Core on eBay

David · 13th November 2013, 07:12 PM

I'm sure many of my fellow ePray watchers saw this one.
http://tinyurl.com/ljk449n
I know that for me a twisted-core ivory-pommeled "archaic" style kris is something of the Holy Grail for my Moro weapons collection. Do others find this realized price reasonable in today's market for an incomplete (no sheath) item like this in semi-rough condition (chipped pommel, hole through blade)? Can anyone explain why there would be a hole in the blade in that location? Is anyone HERE the winner of this kris?

mross · 13th November 2013, 07:48 PM

I was watching this one, I had a bid in that was too low. I bid less than the winner for all the reasons you mentioned. As to the price I think it was reasonable. From my perspective I think Phil. weapons are under priced. I cannot explain why. I can't explain the hole either.

spiral · 13th November 2013, 07:55 PM

For the last 25 or 30 years Ive seen many explanations for holes in blades of tulwar, Kris, Dha, kukri & numerous other blades, shields etc..

Up until 25 or so years ago, many,many pubs in England were adorned with weaponry from around the world, generally drilled & nailed to the wall, so that they weren't brought into more "current" use on a drunken Friday night..

I am sure some blades have been drilled for other reasons, but for many thousands there provenance was a 100 years on a pub wall protected from rust by the layers of tar & nicotine.

Many UK dealers and even collectors a couple of decades ago used to plug the hole with copper brass or Gold, then it becomes more of an enhancement & valuable feature.

Spiral

David · 13th November 2013, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Up until 25 or so years ago, many,many pubs in England were adorned with weaponry from around the world, generally drilled & nailed to the wall, so that they weren't brought into more "current" use on a drunken Friday night..

I am sure some blades have been drilled for other reasons, but for many thousands there provenance was a 100 years on a pub wall protected from rust by the layers of tar & nicotine.

Many UK dealers and even collectors a couple of decades ago used to plug the hole with copper brass or Gold, then it becomes more of an enhancement & valuable feature.

Spiral

Spiral, this is certainly one explanation that i had considered for this particular hole.

ariel · 14th November 2013, 12:32 AM

Right now on E-Bay there is a GOOD OLD MUGHAL TULWAR ..... SHAMSHIR with a similar hole:-)

I fully agree: 100 years on a pub wall.

Spunjer · 14th November 2013, 02:12 AM

this particular kris was an ex-Quirino collection. i was told that according to Cecil, this kris is one of, if not, the oldest kris he ever owned. reason why i'm acquainted with this was because me and seller were discussing the similar kris that i have awhile back:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post143776

jwkiernan · 14th November 2013, 02:52 AM

Here is another example of a kris with a hole in the blade. It also is ex-Quirino collection collected by Cecil in the Filipines.

Cecil and I had a conversation about his thoughts on the origin/reason for the hole...seems as some attribute it to a feature found on some Indonesian keris (for securing blade with a peg when in formal settings?). I have not seen any explanation in my limited readings...part of what makes caring for these swords so much fun!

ThePepperSkull · 14th November 2013, 03:06 AM

Wow. I thought interest in Moro pieces have waned in the past year but it looks like I'm wrong. Or maybe because it's harder and harder to track down a twistcore. The older pieces will always be in demand regardless of overall trends, I think. Like the OP said, Twistcore + Ivory pommel = very desirable, even moreso when taken into consideration the age.

Also, considering the age I believe it to be in relatively good condition. Not great, mind you but good enough to easily restore without being too invasive (i.e. a replacement crest at the back of the pommel, maybe a sheath, or even nice enough to leave it as-is). Collecting quality pieces has changed in the past couple of years in terms of moro blades, and compared to other twistcores that have sold in recent months (including one I remember seeing that was mostly eaten by rust and another with the tip completely shorn off) this one is actually not that bad. Not as good as acquisitions, say, in 2011 but pickings are slimmer and slimmer as popularity and knowledge about these rise.

If it's true about the pub wall theory, it's a shame about the hole but interesting that this was done nonetheless. Especially for such a great piece. If not, the mystery continues.

EDIT: Are there more examples of ethnographic arms with a confirmed "pub drill hole" that we can compare with?

DaveS · 14th November 2013, 03:36 AM

I just have a passion for twist-cores that borders on the uncontrolable.
Even with the chipped pommel and the hole in the blade i think the price
was reasonable. In my area of the country (Calif) there has been more
interest in Moro pieces than i can remember in the last couple of years.
When i look at some of the prices being asked for shamshirs and
tulwars, especially wootz pieces, i think Moro swords of all kinds are a
real bargain..........Dave

DaveS · 14th November 2013, 03:54 AM

As Pepper-skull just mentioned, part of the problem is that twist-cores
are just getting really hard to find. They are just not like the average Moro
swords that we as collectors see all the time. For me, the holy grail would
be to find a twist-core barong. I have seen twist-core camps and twist-
core panabas, i even managed to get a twist-core bolo several years
back. Maybe some day i'll get lucky and end up with a t-c barong that
i will find in some out of the way antique store for fifty dollars. Yaaa right!!!
Dave.

spiral · 14th November 2013, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

EDIT: Are there more examples of ethnographic arms with a confirmed "pub drill hole" that we can compare with?

They were not all drilled at a central pub supplies warehouse, they were done by individuals at each of the many thousands of pubs, so comparing with just one probably doesn't take us very far forward. Different nails,different drills, different workmen, different placement. etc

That said, I assume they would normally be drilled with a twist bit. Generally in a less tempered area, would make sense.

spiral

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2013, 09:24 AM

To the best of my knowledge this keris form is associated with North Borneo/Brunei.

The state execution keris of Brunei was made in Brunei in 1842 and is of this form.

I have seen keris of this form and in worse condition than this, but without a hole in the blade go for much, much higher prices than this.

In Queensland, Australia some years ago a regulation was in force that resulted in many keris being secured in their scabbards by a hole being drilled through scabbard and blade and a nut and bolt being inserted in the hole.

mross · 14th November 2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

I just have a passion for twist-cores that borders on the uncontrolable.
Even with the chipped pommel and the hole in the blade i think the price
was reasonable. In my area of the country (Calif) there has been more
interest in Moro pieces than i can remember in the last couple of years.
When i look at some of the prices being asked for shamshirs and
tulwars, especially wootz pieces, i think Moro swords of all kinds are a
real bargain..........Dave

Dave, I think you and I suffer from the same affliction; it also seems we are on the same page. Scary.

DaveS · 14th November 2013, 10:07 PM

MROSS- Yes it could be considered a terrible affliction. Especially as far as
a persons wallet is concerned. I guess as far as you and i are concerned,
we just might be lucky that twist-cores rarely show up on ebay anymore
or anywhere else for that matter.........Dave

13th November 2013, 07:12 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	"Archaic" Twisted Core on eBay I'm sure many of my fellow ePray watchers saw this one. http://tinyurl.com/ljk449n I know that for me a twisted-core ivory-pommeled "archaic" style kris is something of the Holy Grail for my Moro weapons collection. Do others find this realized price reasonable in today's market for an incomplete (no sheath) item like this in semi-rough condition (chipped pommel, hole through blade)? Can anyone explain why there would be a hole in the blade in that location? Is anyone HERE the winner of this kris? Attached Images

14th November 2013, 02:52 AM	#7
jwkiernan Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	No twist core but another kris with a hole Here is another example of a kris with a hole in the blade. It also is ex-Quirino collection collected by Cecil in the Filipines. Cecil and I had a conversation about his thoughts on the origin/reason for the hole...seems as some attribute it to a feature found on some Indonesian keris (for securing blade with a peg when in formal settings?). I have not seen any explanation in my limited readings...part of what makes caring for these swords so much fun! Attached Images Last edited by jwkiernan; 14th November 2013 at 03:42 PM.

14th November 2013, 03:06 AM	#8
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Wow. I thought interest in Moro pieces have waned in the past year but it looks like I'm wrong. Or maybe because it's harder and harder to track down a twistcore. The older pieces will always be in demand regardless of overall trends, I think. Like the OP said, Twistcore + Ivory pommel = very desirable, even moreso when taken into consideration the age. Also, considering the age I believe it to be in relatively good condition. Not great, mind you but good enough to easily restore without being too invasive (i.e. a replacement crest at the back of the pommel, maybe a sheath, or even nice enough to leave it as-is). Collecting quality pieces has changed in the past couple of years in terms of moro blades, and compared to other twistcores that have sold in recent months (including one I remember seeing that was mostly eaten by rust and another with the tip completely shorn off) this one is actually not that bad. Not as good as acquisitions, say, in 2011 but pickings are slimmer and slimmer as popularity and knowledge about these rise. If it's true about the pub wall theory, it's a shame about the hole but interesting that this was done nonetheless. Especially for such a great piece. If not, the mystery continues. EDIT: Are there more examples of ethnographic arms with a confirmed "pub drill hole" that we can compare with? Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 14th November 2013 at 03:22 AM.

14th November 2013, 03:36 AM	#9
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	It was me. I just have a passion for twist-cores that borders on the uncontrolable. Even with the chipped pommel and the hole in the blade i think the price was reasonable. In my area of the country (Calif) there has been more interest in Moro pieces than i can remember in the last couple of years. When i look at some of the prices being asked for shamshirs and tulwars, especially wootz pieces, i think Moro swords of all kinds are a real bargain..........Dave

14th November 2013, 03:54 AM	#10
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	twist-cores As Pepper-skull just mentioned, part of the problem is that twist-cores are just getting really hard to find. They are just not like the average Moro swords that we as collectors see all the time. For me, the holy grail would be to find a twist-core barong. I have seen twist-core camps and twist- core panabas, i even managed to get a twist-core bolo several years back. Maybe some day i'll get lucky and end up with a t-c barong that i will find in some out of the way antique store for fifty dollars. Yaaa right!!! Dave.

13th November 2013, 07:48 PM	#2
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	I was watching this one, I had a bid in that was too low. I bid less than the winner for all the reasons you mentioned. As to the price I think it was reasonable. From my perspective I think Phil. weapons are under priced. I cannot explain why. I can't explain the hole either.

13th November 2013, 07:55 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	For the last 25 or 30 years Ive seen many explanations for holes in blades of tulwar, Kris, Dha, kukri & numerous other blades, shields etc.. Up until 25 or so years ago, many,many pubs in England were adorned with weaponry from around the world, generally drilled & nailed to the wall, so that they weren't brought into more "current" use on a drunken Friday night.. I am sure some blades have been drilled for other reasons, but for many thousands there provenance was a 100 years on a pub wall protected from rust by the layers of tar & nicotine. Many UK dealers and even collectors a couple of decades ago used to plug the hole with copper brass or Gold, then it becomes more of an enhancement & valuable feature. Spiral

14th November 2013, 12:32 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Right now on E-Bay there is a GOOD OLD MUGHAL TULWAR ..... SHAMSHIR with a similar hole:-) I fully agree: 100 years on a pub wall.

14th November 2013, 02:12 AM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	this particular kris was an ex-Quirino collection. i was told that according to Cecil, this kris is one of, if not, the oldest kris he ever owned. reason why i'm acquainted with this was because me and seller were discussing the similar kris that i have awhile back: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post143776

14th November 2013, 09:24 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	To the best of my knowledge this keris form is associated with North Borneo/Brunei. The state execution keris of Brunei was made in Brunei in 1842 and is of this form. I have seen keris of this form and in worse condition than this, but without a hole in the blade go for much, much higher prices than this. In Queensland, Australia some years ago a regulation was in force that resulted in many keris being secured in their scabbards by a hole being drilled through scabbard and blade and a nut and bolt being inserted in the hole.

14th November 2013, 10:07 PM	#14
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	MROSS- Yes it could be considered a terrible affliction. Especially as far as a persons wallet is concerned. I guess as far as you and i are concerned, we just might be lucky that twist-cores rarely show up on ebay anymore or anywhere else for that matter.........Dave