Indo Persian Battle Axe

[Iliad]

Greetings to all,
Here is another recent purchase, being acquired from a reputable dealer in the UK. Described as Indo Persian from the 18th century. There is some slight damage to the blades, presumably from use in battle. It is light in the hand, very easy to use, but if held at the end of the handle the momentum of the swing would apply considerable impact on the unfortunate recipient.
All comments appreciated, thank you in anticipation.
Best regards,
Brian

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Greetings to all,
Here is another recent purchase, being acquired from a reputable dealer in the UK. Described as Indo Persian from the 18th century. There is some slight damage to the blades, presumably from use in battle. It is light in the hand, very easy to use, but if held at the end of the handle the momentum of the swing would apply considerable impact on the unfortunate recipient.
All comments appreciated, thank you in anticipation.
Best regards,
Brian

Salaams Iliad ~ I think this is a parade axe not for fighting~ Qajar dynasty.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[weapons 27]

yes brian
It is a parade quajar period axe

[estcrh]

In the Ottoman empire axes such as these could be more than just parade items, they are often show being carried by important officials as a sign of their office.

Footmen of the Grand Vizier "Chaters 12 som gå för Viziren när han kommer uthi Divan" "12 footmen who go before the Vizier when he goes to the Divan" Satir. The 'Rålamb Costume Book' is a small volume containing 121 miniatures in Indian ink with gouache and some gilding, displaying Turkish officials, occupations and folk types. They were acquired in Constantinople in 1657-58 by Claes Rålamb who led a Swedish embassy to the Sublime Porte.

[Iliad]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your input, I am always looking for new information, with the hope of increasing my small store of knowledge.
As regards the assertion that this axe is a "Parade" axe, I do not doubt you at all, but am interested to know your reasons for saying so. If you give me details of your reasoning then I shall be more informed.
Is your opinion based on: width? length? shape? decoration? weight?
Please be specific. If your opinion is simply a "gut feeling" then please say so.
The photos clearly show damage to the edges of the axe, which can have been caused only by the axe hitting a hard object, presumably not from chopping firewood. If the axe is a Parade axe, not used in battle, then how would the damage have occurred?
If soldiers are parading before royalty, then surely each soldier would be equipped with battle weapons anyway, so why would the soldiers put aside their battle weapons and take up Parade weapons?
If the royal personage is accompanied by bodyguards, then they would use battle weapons not the lesser Parade variety. If royalty is in a procession down the main street of a city, perhaps on the occasion of a royal birthday, then who, other than the bodyguard would be carrying a battle axe anyway?
Daggers yes, but an axe would be overkill surely? And would draw considerable attention.
I shall attempt to attach a photo of a photo from Tirri's book "Islamic Weapons". My axe has some similarities with the one in the photo.
My thanks in anticipation of several scholarly replies.
Best,
Brian

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your input, I am always looking for new information, with the hope of increasing my small store of knowledge.
As regards the assertion that this axe is a "Parade" axe, I do not doubt you at all, but am interested to know your reasons for saying so. If you give me details of your reasoning then I shall be more informed.
Is your opinion based on: width? length? shape? decoration? weight?
Please be specific. If your opinion is simply a "gut feeling" then please say so.
The photos clearly show damage to the edges of the axe, which can have been caused only by the axe hitting a hard object, presumably not from chopping firewood. If the axe is a Parade axe, not used in battle, then how would the damage have occurred?
If soldiers are parading before royalty, then surely each soldier would be equipped with battle weapons anyway, so why would the soldiers put aside their battle weapons and take up Parade weapons?
If the royal personage is accompanied by bodyguards, then they would use battle weapons not the lesser Parade variety. If royalty is in a procession down the main street of a city, perhaps on the occasion of a royal birthday, then who, other than the bodyguard would be carrying a battle axe anyway?
Daggers yes, but an axe would be overkill surely? And would draw considerable attention.
I shall attempt to attach a photo of a photo from Tirri's book "Islamic Weapons". My axe has some similarities with the one in the photo.
My thanks in anticipation of several scholarly replies.
Best,
Brian

Salaams Iliad ~ Parade axe Persian Qajar dynasty. These are common enough and details are in most documents on Qajar dynasty weapons. They are a touch lightweight compared to your displayed battle axe version of similar shape. Persian battle axe style was often chopping axe shaped with a hammer on a single axe. ...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ace+collection

For an interesting example of Ottoman and Persian single head axes see http://islamic-arts.org/2012/arms-an...islamic-world/

An interesting look at some single blade Qajari axes is at http://stsathyre.tumblr.com/post/368...attleaxe-dated

For what looks like a late Safavid or Qajari ceremonial axe see http://m.christies.com/sale/lot/sale...a32dd5f37ece79

Your battle axes are far bigger and more weighty than the Qajari parade axe style at #1... I think your references are correct for battle axe form but not for the object under discussion which is a light weight parade axe. The damage to the edge could have been done a hundred odd ways but I don't think it is battle damage...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iliad]

Greetings to you, Ibrahiim,
Thank you for your prompt and helpful reply. You have convinced me that my axe is indeed a parade axe. Your references are most impressive.
It seems that the main feature which distinguishes a battle axe from a parade axe would be the weight, a battle axe requiring a substantial weight to be truly effective.
Please now explain to me the circumstances in which a parade axe might be used? And why not the heavier battle axe, since the battle axe would be readily available to soldiers?
Best wishes,
Brian

[Horsa]

Parade axe is for non-military use - I think it is a combination of official use and religious such as the Sufi ceremonies. There are some good previous threads on this topic.

Well made examples of these flat Persian crescent shaped axes can be found in the major collections in Europe so they do have collectable and historic value. The challenge is to find good quality workmanship and avoid the poorly made examples that were just for the tourist market. So they are ok, as long as you understand they are not for military use then you wont be disappointed.

There are some crescent axes out there that were indeed for military use however. Like the Bardiche, certain types of european cavalry axe and other types of Islamic axes. But the one looks very typical Qajar.

[Iliad]

Horsa,
thank you for your assistance, much valued. I have just increased my store of knowledge.
Best,
Brian

[Iliad]

I have just had another thought..................if there are such things as parade axes, are there also Parade spears/lances, parade swords, Parade daggers, Parade shields, parade polearms?
I am not trying to be clever, I really want to know.
Brian

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iliad

I have just had another thought..................if there are such things as parade axes, are there also Parade spears/lances, parade swords, Parade daggers, Parade shields, parade polearms?
I am not trying to be clever, I really want to know.
Brian

In a way, yes ... as also Cerimonial, Processional, Masonic; like swords with gold sheaths and hilts, loaded with jewels often with a non sharp edge; polearms with exuberant decorations, etc. A great lot of stuff is developed to show signs of power or and wealth, or to perform rituals, not directioned to combat purposes.
But you also know all that, if you give it a thought .

[estcrh]

If you want to see examples of axes take a look here.

http://www.pinterest.com/samuraianti...ammer-and-axe/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iliad

Greetings to you, Ibrahiim,
Thank you for your prompt and helpful reply. You have convinced me that my axe is indeed a parade axe. Your references are most impressive.
It seems that the main feature which distinguishes a battle axe from a parade axe would be the weight, a battle axe requiring a substantial weight to be truly effective.
Please now explain to me the circumstances in which a parade axe might be used? And why not the heavier battle axe, since the battle axe would be readily available to soldiers?
Best wishes,
Brian

Salaams Iliad, I think you have the answer right there... Parade axes and parade weapons of the Qajar Dynasty were highly ornate and often less weighty than the battlefield items. Yes there are indeed swords and other items in the Qajar parade weapon structure all generally heavily ornate but obviously not for fighting. (some less obvious than others!) The Qajar Dynasty ended in about 1923 and by then a lot of the old weapons were relegated to museums and/or out of service... so here was the opportunity to copy weaponry for parade use ... pomp, pageantry and a show of strength etc. I describe some axes as battle axe when I should really use the term Saddle Axe for the thick heavy single hammer axe combination.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by Iliad

I have just had another thought..................if there are such things as parade axes, are there also Parade spears/lances, parade swords, Parade daggers, Parade shields, parade polearms?

For sure. Ornate, and not sharp can tell you "parade". (Why not sharp? You don't want your ceremonial guards accidentally getting hurt.) When firearms make various cold weapons obsolete, they sometimes live on as parade weapons. It's still done - modern soldiers still have parade swords.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by Iliad

It seems that the main feature which distinguishes a battle axe from a parade axe would be the weight, a battle axe requiring a substantial weight to be truly effective.

IMO, no. 560g of battle axe, large and potentially two-handed, says otherwise. Small one-handed battle axes can be significantly lighter. Battle axes are not beastly massive cleavers, they're usually light and agile - all the better for slicing and dicing. Light = fast. Fast = you actually hit the target.

Well, if a big axe is really lightweight compared with 500-800g or so, then weight might distinguish. OTOH, excessive weight can also diagnose parade weapons. Or distinguish tools from weapons - tool axes are often much heavier than battle axes of similar size.

[Iliad]

Originally Posted by estcrh

If you want to see examples of axes take a look here.

http://www.pinterest.com/samuraianti...ammer-and-axe/

I have looked at this link and am amazed at the variety and quality of the items shown. Thank you so much for providing the reference.
Brian

[Iliad]

Greetings Horsa,
I noted your reference to Sufi festivals and followed it up. I am attaching an interesting pic which shows the use of sharp objects.
Brian