17th century armada chest with 9 bolts

[Marcus den toom]

Hardly a weapon, but rather a protection device against ravaging hordes of probably not the smartest people, i present the 17th century armada chest from my collection

Weighing an approxamatly 50 kg (that is a 100 pounds) this chest was designed to keep your gold Dukats save from any scum trying to rob you blind. I don't know how much good it would do when you would just charge your pike trough it, but i seem to recall that the avarage peasant didn't have pike, so yeah...

I also made a short movie about the inner workings of this iron girlfriend and i reconstructed a spare key (combining it with a wheel lock key).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4JXbksSkcw

[fernando]

Yes, hardly a weapon and hardly within the scope of the forum but, nevertheless, a most interesting apparatus ... apparently in a pristine condition for its age.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually in my personal view, this is a most exciting item, and for myself and Cap'n Mark , it truly does add dimension to the favorite maritime topics especially the Pirates! While not a weapon itself....these and thier contents were certainly the focus of attention bringing the USE of weapons!!!

These chests are extremely desirable today for collectors, and I always find the lore around pirates and buried treasure most entertaining.
Despite fanciful Victorian notions, there are few accounts of any 'treasure' ever buried by pirates except an established instance by Capt. William Kidd I believe in N.Y. That was recovered at the time though...despite the many tales of his, Blackbeards and many other treasures all over.

As I have understood, most of these 'armada chests' (actually they were called 'strong boxes', the armada chest term again Victorian) seem to have been produced almost invariably in Germany, usually Nuremberg or Ausberg, and late 16th through 17th c.

These often varied in size, but the smaller ones for jewelry were 'caskets' if I recall. As noted this one is nearly 100 pounds empty....which when one imagines it filled with gold (very heavy) makes the gross weight formidable at best. Imagine a couple of pirates tramping through the sand carrying this full of gold!!!
The often illustrated known hump back chest in familiar pirate oriented artwork was actually for travel/clothing etc. and appeared in the 19th c. I believe.

The only known 'treasure chest' with known provenance to a 'pirate' belonged to Thomas Tew (died 1695) and was not dug up, but acquired from his family after his death. It is displayed in St. Augustine, Florida and is one of this 'armada' type with metal straps.

[kronckew]

armorial connection: it certainly could be used to hide your burgeoning knife collection from your dearly beloved and protect you from her finding you spend more on them than on her. thus serving a protective role, deflecting verbal barbs and arrows of vituperation.

sadly, i didn't have one.

don't have a wife any more either.

i miss the dogs more than i miss her tho.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually in my personal view, this is a most exciting item, and for myself and Cap'n Mark , it truly does add dimension to the favorite maritime topics especially the Pirates! While not a weapon itself....these and thier contents were certainly the focus of attention bringing the USE of weapons!!! .

Shrewd approach to forum scope

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As I have understood, most of these 'armada chests' (actually they were called 'strong boxes', the armada chest term again Victorian) seem to have been produced almost invariably in Germany, usually Nuremberg or Ausberg, and late 16th through 17th c.

Well, assuming this example is genuine and dated within the period you mention, is in an extremely good condition. It must have had a thorough cleaning treatment ... sandblasting ? And after that it had some finishing cover, judging by that greyish colour ?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As noted this one is nearly 100 pounds empty....which when one imagines it filled with gold (very heavy) makes the gross weight formidable at best. Imagine a couple of pirates tramping through the sand carrying this full of gold!!!

Yes indeed Jim; gold being heavier than lead, it would need the whole crew to carry this chest fully loaded ... changing shifts every hundred steps. .

[Marcus den toom]

@ Fernando, as far as i know these strong boxes/ armada chests are almost allays covered in a layer of black (tar/????). Mine was also covered in a layer of shoe shine.. so i have meticulously cleaned it with pure bezine. The greyish look is because it was standing in the sun, it is actually pretty black

Nevertheless it is very well preserved, only the floor panels have suffered minor damage.
The lock is still pretty strong and nearly 100% complete.
seeing as my treasure chest doesn't have a decorative lockplate which came into fashion in the early 1700s i can honestly say to everyone it is at least from somewhere around 1680 and mostlikely older. The models from the late 16th century are smaller and are simplistical in comparison to the variation i have.


Though a good museum currator coould probably tell a better story than me
A good source for any antique is the newly opened national museum in the Netherlands (my birth country).
https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/collection/NG-NM-7658
https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/search...t%20&ii=4&p=11

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all,
Portuguese Chests often used for weapons on board ships and typically on the Fort Gun line. Originally made to transport sugar and spices. Pre 1650 Muscat.

Below is a huge antique wheeled chest ... "The Javanese Weapons Chest".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Good notes on the decorative lock plates, it is good to know when these came into use as better to date examples. If I understand correctly, those plates were deliberate diversions from the actual key point on top...very creative!!!

Outstanding example of a wood chest Ibrahiim! Did the Portuguese also use these German strong boxes? it seems the Spaniards did (guessing from the romanticized 'armada chest' term).

Nando....couldnt resist me likes pirates

[Marcus den toom]

A good example of a 1700s chest.




In my previous post i posted a link to the national museum from the Netherlands. The box lockcover is almost identical to mine (except for the fact mine is actually still in one piece ).
The source on this cover tell it was abandoned by Dutch setlers from Nova Zembla (africa) in 1596 (!!!!). A English captain found the chest in this condition in 1876.

Only diifference is the size. mine is 40x39x81cm and the on the museum is around 32X33X69 cm.

[M ELEY]

Oh my God! I absolutely love this piece! Jim is dead-on with us collectors of all things 'pirate'! Thomas Tews' chest is pictured in many said books on the sea rovers, so a chest like this in anyone's collection is a gem. They are quite rare and pricey. I recall one being offered in a Museum of Historical Arms from way back and that's the only one I've ever seen for sale. I especially love all the workings on the inside lid-quite intricate.

I know this piece is far from a weapon, but it is very inspiring to some of us, so I'd like to thank the Moderators for allowing it. I've often been tempted to post pics from my maritime collection of the non-weapon type, but didn't wish to annoy anyone. Hey, I know! If I stick a weapon or two in front of the item, might it be acceptable (keeping the topic on the weapon, of course!)

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

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The source on this cover tell it was abandoned by Dutch setlers from Nova Zembla (africa) in 1596 (!!!!).

Nova Zembla...Africa?

Re:chest. These come up in European auctions, and one giant example is in the Metropolitan Museum. I don't know about the shipboard use, but I do remember reading that these were used by regimental commanders to transport soldiers wages.

[Marcus den toom]

Srry Dmitri, you're right my geographical skills are not togood.
But after i looked the place up on the internet i immediatly thoughed about a other "trade" route of the Dutch during the golden age. The whaling grounds in north Russia...

[Dmitry]

Yes, in the late 16th-throughout the 17th c. the Dutch were the kings of the seas. It can be said that 2 out of every 5 ships on high seas at that time were Dutch. Somehow it all fizzled out.
Have you seen this film yet? I don't know if there's an English-subtitled version yet, but I'd love to see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqXSFdFxvl8

Perhaps the chest you showed above came from the Barentsz expedition to find the Northern Passage to Asia? Still a treacherous way to travel now. The ice-free navigation period is very short. One has to have immense respect for the travelers of old.

[fernando]

As Jim well reminds the fanciful term “Armada chest” was made up “the other day”. Most probably chests used aboard were of the same characteristics of those used in land, even comprehending the various styles created now and then, here and there. Apparently those aboard were often chained to the officers cabin decks, which is easy to understand. I gather that very often these chests contained precious documents, like valuable and unique navigation charts and devices, besides weapons and hard currency … not excluding jewels and precious metals … this not to ignore the romantic pirate approach . Most probably also the gold brought from Africa during discoveries period, was carried in this fashion of more or less intrincate lock chests; as there is solid evidence of the Burras used to carry the gold from Brazil in the XVIII century

In the XIII century, a method of filing (keeping) jewels and other valuable objects was implemented in Portugal (for one); these were enclosed in a chest with four locks, each one handed to a high rank official of the kingdom.
This habit originated the term “Fechado a sete chaves” ( locked with seven keys ), still used nowadays. Number seven was incorporated in the expression due to its mystic value, something present in Babilonic and Egiption religions. An example of this numer symbology is the quantity of seals with which Roman wills were closed in the middle ages.
The present term used for chest over here is cofre (coffer) of Latin ecclesiastic origin, but a term more directed to this type of armoured chests was Burra (feminine for donkey).

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[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding input everybody!!! It is truly amazing how much dimension is gained in these kinds of discussions, and the item itself has provided a great avenue for it! Thanks everyone for this added perspective.

I'd sure like to have one of these, but can guarantee the shocks on the good ole bookmobile would give out!
You right Nando, it would take most of the pirate crew to drag (carry not likely!) one of these full of gold!! Hooray for Hollywood with those powerful guys in the old pirate movies, two or three, carrying these like a piece of furniture

[Marcus den toom]

If you know where to look, they are rather cheap
There is one for sale right now for just 200 great brittain pounds (around $300??) depending on the interest in this particular chest. It is a bit younger variant but still pretty nice (1750s).

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ...

Marcus den toom... That is very cheap... maybe there are a lot of them ... as for the Portuguese pre 1650 Omani Chests add a couple of zeros as there are very few left.

Jim~ I have no evidence to hand about the Armada boxes but the Portuguese may have used them aboard in the Indian Ocean.

This is a great topic. I remember that when I got the Javanese weapons chest in Dubai the story was that it was from Jerusalem and had been used in a monastary for vestment plate and religious items etc...

The big Portuguese Chests are called "Caizas a Sugar" in Portuguese (excuse my spelling) "Sugar Boxes" and in their found condition these great spices chests were preserved under a thick coat of bat droppings!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

"Caixas de açucar" are a totally different culture; not the safe coffer sense but a transportation means. These cases were active from the XV to the XIX centuries, and their name comes from their use to transport sugar from the colonies. Soon their dimensions were 'standardized' and they also became sugar measure units of multiple sizes, the larger ones reaching large proportions (15 arrobas or arratels x 15 Kilos = 225 Kilos). They were made of various fine woods which, during the XVII century, were 'recycled' by cabinetmakers to make fashionable furniture, the so called "mobília caixa de açucar".

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[Marcus den toom]

@ Dimitri,

I almost forgot your question about the Nova Zembla movie and the subs in English. This site might be of help..
http://www.podnapisi.net/nova-zembla...itles-p1543882

The film itself is unkown to me, i did hear about it but never watched it. Most Dutch movies aren't ehhh well... very good
But seeing as this is the only one covering this amazing subject, it will do just fine.

I bought my Strong box at an Auction in the area of cambridge in Great Brittain. It might have a similair story as the box in the museum, but there is no documentation and the auctionhouse won't tell me who the previous owner was.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

"Caixas de açucar" are a totally different culture; not the safe coffer sense but a transportation means. These cases were active from the XV to the XIX centuries, and their name comes from their use to transport sugar from the colonies. Soon their dimensions were 'standardized' and they also became sugar measure units of multiple sizes, the larger ones reaching large proportions (15 arrobas or arratels x 15 Kilos = 225 Kilos). They were made of various fine woods which, during the XVII century, were 'recycled' by cabinetmakers to make fashionable furniture, the so called "mobília caixa de açucar".

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Salaams ~ When the Portuguese were finally eased out of Muscat in 1650... they left behind a lot of heavy furniture in the shape of chests which as you rightly point out were the huge heavy sugar boxes which were used for all sorts of purposes ...storing silver and spices as well as sugar... Some ended up on the Fort gun lines at Muscat and Sohar whilst others were carted inland to the Jebel Akhdar region etc... I used to own about 100 such artefacts and was amazed on only finding about 6 in the Museums in Portugal. Some had 2, 3 or 5 drawers in them and occasionally a chest of drawers would turn up ...i.e. all drawers.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[M ELEY]

On the television show 'Pawn Stars', there was an original one of these iron chests that was given an auction value of above $10 grand, I believe, but it was a big chest.

On another episode of that same program, a man brought in one made of wood with the intricate locks and key-holes, etc. It turned out to be from India and, although not a 'treasure box', it was used for storing valuables and keeping away thieves, much like your piece, Ibrahiim. It would appear that one pattern influenced another, hey? In any case, these chests were certainly found in castles, keeps, ship's holds (well-founded research) and very probably monasteries as well as merchant's storefronts. All of the examples displayed are envious items in a collection. Wish I had one. Marcus, if you know where one is for that price, buy it for me and I'll pay you back!! If it's legitimate, I think the auction estimate will be much lower than what it actually sells for.

[Marcus den toom]

This one is up for sale right now, it is signed and has a date on it 1753.
The dimensions are 55.4cm wide, 29cm high, 34.5cm deep
so it is a bit smaller than mine and about 100+ years younger.

[M ELEY]

Wow! That's a nice piece that would clean up very well! Too bad I am dead broke right now! Just picked up a nice navigational tool called a graphometer that set me back. Seeing your chest and this one though makes me want to make a Christmas list!!

[Dmitry]

I thought graphometer was a land-surveying tool. How would you use it in navigation?

[fernando]

Also used aboard to measure by angle the position of objects on sea or points in land. Not exactly for navigation ... but (also) a naval utensile .

[M ELEY]

I had to do a bit of research just to identify the piece, but Fernando hit it on the head. Mostly a 'land tool', but also used to find the 'lubber's line'? This mathematical stuff boggles my mind!

[fernando]

I know nothing of these things either ... or of any things at all .
It just came to my mind that many orientation devices are invented to serve in firm land and later adapted for naval or navigation use; such is the case of the extremely significant astrolabe.

[M ELEY]

Excellent point,though,Fernando.The graphometer isn't used in navigation (my typo error), but could be used at sea in both an engineering capacity or possible military usage, such as for determining the best place to storm a coastline, etc. Off-topic, sorry.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Off-topic, sorry.

Man shall not live by bread alone

[Marcus den toom]

another example that is for sale, minimum bid 280 great britttain pounds.
Measures 17" long x 7 3/4" deep x 9" high, opening to reveal green painted interior.