Unknown Weapon

clockwork · 15th June 2013, 12:14 AM

Hi guys I picked up a new piece while in china and I have no idea what it is. I was told the martial art masters were the only ones that used it. It reminds me of a skinny mace with a protective cover. It is 20 and 3/4 inches long total and 18 and 1/4. with out the cover. it has a hole in the back and a sliding metal clasp to keep the cover from coming open. The second item I picked up in china is a hand cannon and it 37 and half centimetres or 15 inches long at the widest point is 2 and 1/4 inches I think there is some writing near the base but not sure how to clean it with out hurting it. the bore is 3/4 inch. the length of the barrel is about 10 and the wood pole goes in about 3 and 1/4. Fernando will be posting pics soon 4 me.

fernando · 15th June 2013, 05:33 PM

Pictures.

.

fernando · 15th June 2013, 05:35 PM

A couple more.

.

clockwork · 15th June 2013, 05:52 PM

thanks Fernando

Battara · 15th June 2013, 07:10 PM

The second looks like a type of cannon, but what it the first one?

fernando · 15th June 2013, 07:20 PM

That's precisely the question

clockwork · 15th June 2013, 07:34 PM

the second is an chinese pole / hand cannon I believe there from the 15th thro 17 centuries. but dont much more than that.

fernando · 15th June 2013, 08:07 PM

That's a lot of years, Tony

RhysMichael · 15th June 2013, 08:26 PM

It will be interesting to see what it turns out to be

trenchwarfare · 15th June 2013, 10:10 PM

I'm thinking some kind of harpoon, or harpoon head. Maybe fired from a cannon? Looks to dangerous to be used as a hand held weapon. Would easily pinch your fingers off.

The pole cannon is cool, and looks legit. Lots of fakes coming out of China. All I've seen, are very heavily rusted.

Philip · 16th June 2013, 06:13 AM

The hand cannon is trying to look like an original specimen from the heyday of these weapons, 14th through early 17th cent. However, based on seeing published examples in various museums, handling others in private collections, and even owning a few, I can state with confidence that the appearance of this example is not anywhere near that of the diverse types of these weapons made in China, Vietnam, Korea, and even Japan. The proportions and shape are not right. One should also remember that the vast majority of Far Eastern examples are made of bronze, not iron. Another point is that the corrosion seen on this example is too uniform for something that has been rusting away for many centuries, possibly underground. It looks induced by an aggressive acid bath. The touch-hole is just too symmetrical for something that would likely be eroded by heat and explosive byproducts ejected during firing over a period of time.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th June 2013, 06:27 AM

Salaams all... My guess is that the first item is a set of folding scales .

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

fernando · 16th June 2013, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all... My guess is that the first item is a set of folding scales .

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Pretty good guess, i would say.

clockwork · 16th June 2013, 11:50 PM

all the weight is in the back so dont believe its a scale. The cover can be locked with a ring and can be with some difficulty locked on the back side. plus the front has sharpened edges.

fearn · 17th June 2013, 01:05 AM

Is the sharpening of the one edge of the same age as the rest? Ibrahim's the first one to suggest a possible function.

It doesn't make much sense as a standalone weapon, because that swinging cover is a wonderful knuckle masher. The blunt end is quite large to be used as a haft. It makes some sense as a scale, but only if it's been altered to be more weaponish.

Or is there something I'm missing here?

Best,

F

trenchwarfare · 17th June 2013, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Is the sharpening of the one edge of the same age as the rest? Ibrahim's the first one to suggest a possible function.

It doesn't make much sense as a standalone weapon, because that swinging cover is a wonderful knuckle masher. The blunt end is quite large to be used as a haft. It makes some sense as a scale, but only if it's been altered to be more weaponish.

Or is there something I'm missing here?

Best,

F

Did you not read my post?

soni bikaner · 17th June 2013, 04:18 AM

...My guess is that the first item is a "Torture Device"

machinist · 17th June 2013, 06:48 PM

It looks like a butchers gambrel to me. A device for hanging a carcass by its tendons. But such a thing would usually have an angle to it that would help keep the legs spread.

fernando · 17th June 2013, 07:52 PM

Is that a hole, there?
Is that whole section hollow ?

Dmitry · 17th June 2013, 08:31 PM

The first one looks like a large scale, perhaps for weighing grains.

clockwork · 18th June 2013, 02:10 AM

Fernando, it is not hollow just a hole and most of the weight is in that area. I joined a chinese cite that discusses weapons hopefully the can help me with this item as well.

trenchwarfare · 18th June 2013, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clockwork

Fernando, it is not hollow just a hole and most of the weight is in that area. I joined a chinese cite that discusses weapons hopefully the can help me with this item as well.

If a scale, it'd be for a set measure of weight, as there are no (visible) calibrations. There is a farm implement called a "hay harpoon". Used for hauling hay bails into the loft.

fernando · 19th June 2013, 01:59 PM

I'd go back to that hole. It must be there for some reason. Was there some appendix stuck in it ?

fearn · 19th June 2013, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I'd go back to that hole. It must be there for some reason. Was there some appendix stuck in it ?

I'm trying to figure this out logically:

--it's likely not a hay harpoon or similar, because there's no barb on the sharp end.

--it's likely not a weaponoid artifact, because there's no good evidence that the sharp end was sharpened to make it look like a weapon. The swinging bit does act as a blade guard for the sharp end, because it won't swing around the heavy end, and the ring to close it only closes the sharp end.

--The ends are asymmetric, and there's a hole in the heavy end. This suggests that there's a purpose to the design, and possibly that purpose is not confusing collectors.

--The joint for the swivel is fairly thin, which makes it less likely to be a fulcrum for a heavy weight (as in a butcher's gambrel) or a scale.

So what have we got? I still don't know.

One thing I'm starting to wonder is whether it's part of some sort of booby trap, where the sharp end gets swiveled out by the action of a string on the heavy end.

The other thought is that it's the most over-built tent stake I've ever seen (sharp end goes in the ground, heavy end is used as the tie-off, and sheath makes it easier to carry).

colin henshaw · 19th June 2013, 06:00 PM

My guess is its to be stuck in the ground and used to tether either a bird or smallish animal. Perhaps hens/geese in a market or a bird of prey as in falconry, or something like a ferret as used in hunting

The iron sheath is just protective and the hole in the thick end to thread a cord or thong through.

Regards.

clockwork · 24th June 2013, 04:38 AM

Well its a shame we cold not figure out what this is, But thank you for all the input. Maybe in the future I will figure it out.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th June 2013, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clockwork

Well its a shame we cold not figure out what this is, But thank you for all the input. Maybe in the future I will figure it out.

Salaams clockwork~ I think you will find that a number of posts indicate exactly what you have... a set of scales.. albeit incomplete i.e. minus the weighing dishes.. I would say for measuring spices etc

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David · 25th June 2013, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams clockwork~ I think you will find that a number of posts indicate exactly what you have... a set of scales.. albeit incomplete i.e. minus the weighing dishes.. I would say for measuring spices etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well, i'd hardly say there has been ANY definitive answer to what this first item might be. When i look back over this thread i find exactly one other person who seems to fully agree with you on the scale possibility. Not much of a consensus there. If it is a scale there are an awful lot of oddities about it.
1. Why would a scale have a balance bar that is drastically unbalanced in weight. Clockwork has stated that all the weight is on the side with the hole.
2. How would the missing weighing trays hang? There is only a hole on one end of the unbalanced balance bar.
3. Why would one end of a scale's balance bar be dangerously sharpened like a spear?
Frankly, while interesting, i think we are spending an awful amount of time discussing an implement that most probably is not a weapon...but i don't think it is a scale either....

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th June 2013, 05:25 PM

Salaams David,
I agree with your point 3 in particular... however, since we have a debate I was thinking about the floating "d ring" well described at #1 as a sliding metal clasp, which, it is assumed keeps the assembly in place when being transported... but which is, I suspect, the hanging point of one side of the scales so that there are, in fact, not two dishes... but one ... so that the scales follow a similar style to chinese opium scales. That would also explain why there is no hole in the redundant other end.. The other missing parts are the weighing dish and its likely 4 hanging cords and the hook and weight assembly built to hang on the "d ring" which is mobile across its bar. It would appear that the graticules determining weight are inscribed on the bar itself... which is also the case at #1 .

See Chinese Opium Scale picture below;

I agree this does not appear to be a weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

VANDOO · 25th June 2013, 07:20 PM

A INTERESTING DESCUSSION

I HAVE NEVER USED SUCH A SCALE BUT KNOW THEY ARE IN USE IN SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD EVEN TODAY. EVERYTHING ABOUT SUCH A SCALE WOULD HAVE A PURPOSE AS THEY WERE OFTEN CARRIED FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND HAD TO BE SET UP AND TAKEN DOWN REGULARLY. SIZE AND WEIGHT WOULD BE IMPORTANT AS YOU WOULD NOT WANT TO CARRY ANYMORE THAN NECESSARY. PERHAPS THE BLADE SERVED TO MAKE A HOLE IN THE DIRT OR IN A BOARD OR SOMETHING FOR MOUNTING THE SCALE OR PERFORMED SOME OTHER TOOL FUNCTION. WHATEVER IT IS I DON'T THINK ITS A WEAPON OR FORM OF TRAP BUT A INTERESTING TOOL.

15th June 2013, 05:33 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Pictures. . Attached Images

15th June 2013, 05:35 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A couple more. . Attached Images

15th June 2013, 08:26 PM	#9
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	It will be interesting to see what it turns out to be Last edited by RhysMichael; 15th June 2013 at 08:37 PM.

16th June 2013, 06:13 AM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	doesn't look kosher to me The hand cannon is trying to look like an original specimen from the heyday of these weapons, 14th through early 17th cent. However, based on seeing published examples in various museums, handling others in private collections, and even owning a few, I can state with confidence that the appearance of this example is not anywhere near that of the diverse types of these weapons made in China, Vietnam, Korea, and even Japan. The proportions and shape are not right. One should also remember that the vast majority of Far Eastern examples are made of bronze, not iron. Another point is that the corrosion seen on this example is too uniform for something that has been rusting away for many centuries, possibly underground. It looks induced by an aggressive acid bath. The touch-hole is just too symmetrical for something that would likely be eroded by heat and explosive byproducts ejected during firing over a period of time.

17th June 2013, 07:52 PM	#19
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Is that a hole, there? Is that whole section hollow ? Attached Images

15th June 2013, 12:14 AM	#1
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	Unknown Weapon Hi guys I picked up a new piece while in china and I have no idea what it is. I was told the martial art masters were the only ones that used it. It reminds me of a skinny mace with a protective cover. It is 20 and 3/4 inches long total and 18 and 1/4. with out the cover. it has a hole in the back and a sliding metal clasp to keep the cover from coming open. The second item I picked up in china is a hand cannon and it 37 and half centimetres or 15 inches long at the widest point is 2 and 1/4 inches I think there is some writing near the base but not sure how to clean it with out hurting it. the bore is 3/4 inch. the length of the barrel is about 10 and the wood pole goes in about 3 and 1/4. Fernando will be posting pics soon 4 me.

15th June 2013, 05:52 PM	#4
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	thanks Fernando

15th June 2013, 07:10 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	The second looks like a type of cannon, but what it the first one?

15th June 2013, 07:20 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That's precisely the question

15th June 2013, 07:34 PM	#7
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	the second is an chinese pole / hand cannon I believe there from the 15th thro 17 centuries. but dont much more than that.

15th June 2013, 08:07 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That's a lot of years, Tony

15th June 2013, 10:10 PM	#10
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I'm thinking some kind of harpoon, or harpoon head. Maybe fired from a cannon? Looks to dangerous to be used as a hand held weapon. Would easily pinch your fingers off. The pole cannon is cool, and looks legit. Lots of fakes coming out of China. All I've seen, are very heavily rusted.

16th June 2013, 06:27 AM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all... My guess is that the first item is a set of folding scales . Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi

16th June 2013, 11:50 PM	#14
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	all the weight is in the back so dont believe its a scale. The cover can be locked with a ring and can be with some difficulty locked on the back side. plus the front has sharpened edges.

17th June 2013, 01:05 AM	#15
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Is the sharpening of the one edge of the same age as the rest? Ibrahim's the first one to suggest a possible function. It doesn't make much sense as a standalone weapon, because that swinging cover is a wonderful knuckle masher. The blunt end is quite large to be used as a haft. It makes some sense as a scale, but only if it's been altered to be more weaponish. Or is there something I'm missing here? Best, F

17th June 2013, 04:18 AM	#17
soni bikaner Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: bikaner, rajasthan, india Posts: 6	...My guess is that the first item is a "Torture Device"

17th June 2013, 06:48 PM	#18
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	It looks like a butchers gambrel to me. A device for hanging a carcass by its tendons. But such a thing would usually have an angle to it that would help keep the legs spread.

17th June 2013, 08:31 PM	#20
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The first one looks like a large scale, perhaps for weighing grains.

18th June 2013, 02:10 AM	#21
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	Fernando, it is not hollow just a hole and most of the weight is in that area. I joined a chinese cite that discusses weapons hopefully the can help me with this item as well. Last edited by clockwork; 18th June 2013 at 02:29 AM.

19th June 2013, 01:59 PM	#23
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I'd go back to that hole. It must be there for some reason. Was there some appendix stuck in it ?

19th June 2013, 06:00 PM	#25
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	My guess is its to be stuck in the ground and used to tether either a bird or smallish animal. Perhaps hens/geese in a market or a bird of prey as in falconry, or something like a ferret as used in hunting The iron sheath is just protective and the hole in the thick end to thread a cord or thong through. Regards.

24th June 2013, 04:38 AM	#26
clockwork Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 93	Well its a shame we cold not figure out what this is, But thank you for all the input. Maybe in the future I will figure it out.

25th June 2013, 05:25 PM	#29
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams David, I agree with your point 3 in particular... however, since we have a debate I was thinking about the floating "d ring" well described at #1 as a sliding metal clasp, which, it is assumed keeps the assembly in place when being transported... but which is, I suspect, the hanging point of one side of the scales so that there are, in fact, not two dishes... but one ... so that the scales follow a similar style to chinese opium scales. That would also explain why there is no hole in the redundant other end.. The other missing parts are the weighing dish and its likely 4 hanging cords and the hook and weight assembly built to hang on the "d ring" which is mobile across its bar. It would appear that the graticules determining weight are inscribed on the bar itself... which is also the case at #1 . See Chinese Opium Scale picture below; I agree this does not appear to be a weapon. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th June 2013 at 07:01 PM.

25th June 2013, 07:20 PM	#30
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A INTERESTING DESCUSSION I HAVE NEVER USED SUCH A SCALE BUT KNOW THEY ARE IN USE IN SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD EVEN TODAY. EVERYTHING ABOUT SUCH A SCALE WOULD HAVE A PURPOSE AS THEY WERE OFTEN CARRIED FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND HAD TO BE SET UP AND TAKEN DOWN REGULARLY. SIZE AND WEIGHT WOULD BE IMPORTANT AS YOU WOULD NOT WANT TO CARRY ANYMORE THAN NECESSARY. PERHAPS THE BLADE SERVED TO MAKE A HOLE IN THE DIRT OR IN A BOARD OR SOMETHING FOR MOUNTING THE SCALE OR PERFORMED SOME OTHER TOOL FUNCTION. WHATEVER IT IS I DON'T THINK ITS A WEAPON OR FORM OF TRAP BUT A INTERESTING TOOL.