jambiya dagger

[Adriboy]

my name Adrian, from Indonesia... I have one jambiya dagger from yamani that belongs to my family.. I want to have the help from everyone here who know that is my jambiya dagger is realy from yaman country? is it old and is it a good one or maybe just a standard souvenir for tourist weapon?

then is my dagger handle from standard bull horn, cow, wood, ivory or rhino horn, or else?

and about the leather, is it from real leather, plastic leather or else?

thanks if anyone can give information, since this dagger is beautiful for us and we want to keep it for my family... thanks alot then

[djoaov]

Hello, can you poste some photos?
thank you

[Robert]

Hello Adrian, and welcome to the forum. If you are having a problem posting photos of your dagger there is a sticky at the top of the page that will explain how it is done. Again, welcome to the forum.


Best,
Robert

[Adriboy]

I send additional pictures... thanks...

[Adriboy]

additional pictures from me.. thanks then

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Adrian,

This is a nice and authentic example. The hilt appears to be normal horn, but you can try a light test. Basically bring a flashlight to the hilt's head and take a photo :-)

[Adriboy]

flashlight to the hilt's head photos

[Adriboy]

flashlight to the hilt's head photos

[Adriboy]

Hello... What is normal horn.. Is it from bull, cow, deer, giraffe, rhino or else? I see the handle phisically not from wood, steel or stone material.. Can you help me about this kind of dagger and its hilt or handlle...

[Adriboy]

Originally Posted by djoaov

Hello, can you poste some photos?
thank you

I already sending picture .. Can you help me to explain about my weapon? Thanks...

[Adriboy]

I also know many friends of this forum can help me to give information about this weapon. Is it real jambiya dagger from yaman? Is it old or the new one? About the blade, is it a good steel, and is it pure leather? And what kind of normal horn is the hilt? Thanks so much then..

[BANTARU]

hi Adriboy,

that is not a light test. to do a light test, you must flash the light very close to the handle like this:

btw how long have you had that Jambiya? Did you buy it or is it a family heirloom. I have heard that some Indonesian families have Yemeni ancestry. IF so then it is possible it is Rhino. It does look a bit like Rhino and not like normal horn. Any ways repeat the test as in the pic below. If you see the orange glow, you are in luck.

[Adriboy]

Hello.. Maybe my big old family have relationship or friendship with ancestor from yaman, arabian middle east who lalso live hear in Idonesia..

Since this three days, I begin to look at any kind of our native steel material, wood tree and horn or part of the body from animal ( such as ebony wood, teak timber, some other local timber, deer-cow-bull-ivory, tiger claw, pig, crocodile, bear and even jungle hen ) which using for hilt for our traditional weapon/ blade.. But maybe, none of them I see which similar to this hilt.. But the leather of this weapon almost surely look like as our animal leather ( I can said that this weapon is true using animal leather)...

I also read many topics in forum here, and said that if it is a typically dagger from yaman, maybe its hilt is from rhino horn..

So then about the test that you explain to me, is it a flash light test, not burning with lighter test? What about the test with smell hairy burning test with lighter? And also glass magnifier with eyes test which will see the material at the top end of the hilt will look like a bundle of "thin spaghetti"?
Thanks so much for your help.. Have a nice day then

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by BANTARU

hi Adriboy,

that is not a light test. to do a light test, you must flash the light very close to the handle like this:

btw how long have you had that Jambiya? Did you buy it or is it a family heirloom. I have heard that some Indonesian families have Yemeni ancestry. IF so then it is possible it is Rhino. It does look a bit like Rhino and not like normal horn. Any ways repeat the test as in the pic below. If you see the orange glow, you are in luck.

Salaams BANTARU.. That was a great explanation of the light test. I agree the hilt is Rhino at #1.
Rhino was commonly used on Yemeni daggers.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BANTARU]

Originally Posted by Adriboy

Hello.. Maybe my big old family have relationship or friendship with ancestor from yaman, arabian middle east who lalso live hear in Idonesia..

Since this three days, I begin to look at any kind of our native steel material, wood tree and horn or part of the body from animal ( such as ebony wood, teak timber, some other local timber, deer-cow-bull-ivory, tiger claw, pig, crocodile, bear and even jungle hen ) which using for hilt for our traditional weapon/ blade.. But maybe, none of them I see which similar to this hilt.. But the leather of this weapon almost surely look like as our animal leather ( I can said that this weapon is true using animal leather)...

I also read many topics in forum here, and said that if it is a typically dagger from yaman, maybe its hilt is from rhino horn..

So then about the test that you explain to me, is it a flash light test, not burning with lighter test? What about the test with smell hairy burning test with lighter? And also glass magnifier with eyes test which will see the material at the top end of the hilt will look like a bundle of "thin spaghetti"?
Thanks so much for your help.. Have a nice day then

hello there. the leather is real. anyways dont worry about it. Its not that important.

There are the following types of test for Rhino horn:

- Bounce: Rhino horn will bounce and not break when dropped from shoulder height. However , be careful. If your handle is not rhino, the dagger might break so keep this for the end or just dont do it if you are not sure.
Heat: Take a red hot pin and place it on the handle or if you can risk it, light a very tiny part of the horn. Burning rhino horn smells like burning hair.
Cut: The fibrous structure is visible when the surface, which may be shiny, is cut away. Dont try this, unless you want to disect your handle.
Light: Rhino horn displays luminescence when a torch is shone along its edge. Take the torch and place it close to the handle as i told you before.
Magnify: Fibres are more easily visible on the surface under low magnification. THese fibres look like orange peel/ hair strands or as you said, "thin spaghetti".

Selamat.

[BANTARU]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams BANTARU.. That was a great explanation of the light test. I agree the hilt is Rhino at #1.
Rhino was commonly used on Yemeni daggers.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaam Wajah,

Thank You. yes you are right.

[VANDOO]

I THINK IT IS RHINO THE LIGHT TEST AND INSPECTION UNDER HIGH MAGNIFICATION IN GOOD LIGHT MAY MAKE IT CLEAR. THE HOT PIN TEST WILL NOT HELP HERE AS HORN OF ALL SORTS SMELLS ABOUT THE SAME THE PIN TEST HELPS DETECT PLASTIC OR OTHER CAST MATERIALS BY ITS SMELL OR THE LACK THERE OF. LOOKS TO BE A OLD ONE DUE TO THE CRACKED, DARK PATINA AND WEAR ON THE HANDLE. A NICE FAMILY HEIRLOOM.

[kai]

Originally Posted by BANTARU

It does look a bit like Rhino and not like normal horn. Any ways repeat the test as in the pic below. If you see the orange glow, you are in luck.

Hello Bantaru, welcome to the forum!

I agree that the hilt you showed us in post #12 does seem to be rhino: it does exhibit the orange peel look typical for old/weathered rhino horn and a close examination under magnification will probably show the characteristic microstructure (a 10x magnifying lens does help a lot with checking details of antique pieces, especially at stores, etc.); placing a strong light source next to the hilt often helps to observe this feature (a small LED pocket light is usually enough and also very versatile when checking out stuff).

However, the color is certainly not suitable for identifying rhino horn which can come in just about any color; also water buffalo horn can have a very wide range of colors - same-o with cattle, etc. ...

I'm attaching pics of a hilt that has a pommel as well as a ferrule crafted from horn that, from color and texture, would still be advertised by many (even experienced and well established) dealers as rhino but certainly isn't! (I believe this example is from patinated albino carabao horn.)

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

the leather is real.

Agreed. Always check worn areas, especially torn edges/etc. - very tough to fake with plastic leather.

There are the following types of test for Rhino horn:
Bounce: Rhino horn will bounce and not break when dropped from shoulder height. However , be careful. If your handle is not rhino, the dagger might break so keep this for the end or just dont do it if you are not sure.

To me, this sounds very much like "Kids, don't try this at home!"...
A fairly compact jambiya/khanjar hilt may survive some punishment (average shoulder height, floor material?) when structurally intact to begin with. Antique, weathered rhino horn is certainly not immune to cracking as can be seen in many extant hilts.

Heat: Take a red hot pin and place it on the handle or if you can risk it, light a very tiny part of the horn. Burning rhino horn smells like burning hair.

As do all other horn types as already noted by Barry.

Cut: The fibrous structure is visible when the surface, which may be shiny, is cut away. Dont try this, unless you want to disect your handle.

No need to damage a piece of history. Magnification is the key (experience and examples for comparing do help though).

Light: Rhino horn displays luminescence when a torch is shone along its edge. Take the torch and place it close to the handle as i told you before.

Not diagnostic as already covered in the post above.

Magnify: Fibres are more easily visible on the surface under low magnification. THese fibres look like orange peel/ hair strands or as you said, "thin spaghetti".

The microstructure of the hair strands of which rhino horn consists is the only suitable diagnostic feature to identify rhino horn; the orange peel look may be a first hint but can be mimicked by other (well-aged) horn types. For verification, we need to focus on the microstructure!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Adrian,

Welcome to the forum!

And also glass magnifier with eyes test which will see the material at the top end of the hilt will look like a bundle of "thin spaghetti"?

Yes, this is the only way to verify rhino horn. Look for surfaces which are reasonably smooth and close to vertical to the "grain" of the horn. In your example this would be the pommel end of the hilt, for example.

While there are a few hints which may point to your hilt being from rhino (texture at the upper corners of the attached close-up), I am not yet convinced that it really is rhino: the appaearance of the more obvious cracks in the hilt as well as the "blonde" streak at the gripping area do look more like "common" horn to me.

Regards,
Kai

[Adriboy]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Adrian,

Welcome to the forum!



Yes, this is the only way to verify rhino horn. Look for surfaces which are reasonably smooth and close to vertical to the "grain" of the horn. In your example this would be the pommel end of the hilt, for example.

While there are a few hints which may point to your hilt being from rhino (texture at the upper corners of the attached close-up), I am not yet convinced that it really is rhino: the appaearance of the more obvious cracks in the hilt as well as the "blonde" streak at the gripping area do look more like "common" horn to me.

Regards,
Kai

Strangely that many common horn in Indonesia, and many tradional people have those in their own house.. The local deer, bull or buffalo and cow, goat,sheep even ivory horn.. All these animal not look the same structures like this hilt structure (under magnifier glass)..

And about using flashlight camera to take photo that can picture the fibrous structures and see the orange glow, are there special setting before we take photos? Maybe must have special light or standard with pocket digital camera, about ISO feature, Macro, zooming, picture size and else... Thank you then..

[A.alnakkas]

Not a rhino hilt. I would suggest some sort of cattle horn.

The top of the hilt does not show any of the rhino grain, the translucency is not right. The fiberious structure along the hilt is that of a cattle horn rather than rhino. Also, on the side of the hilt, you can see the white stain like structure that is characteristic of cattle horn.

[BANTARU]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Not a rhino hilt. I would suggest some sort of cattle horn.

The top of the hilt does not show any of the rhino grain, the translucency is not right. The fiberious structure along the hilt is that of a cattle horn rather than rhino. Also, on the side of the hilt, you can see the white stain like structure that is characteristic of cattle horn.

Salaam Alnakkas,

If you were to join by colour, almost all Rhino horns are dark-brown to black colour on the outside and white on the inside with a blackened core.

Judging by colour, this handle passes the rhino test. The white mark must be so because the outer brownish-black layer has chipped off.

Another feature Ive noticed in Rhino horns, is the cracked lines, lines that resemble a desert after a drought. this is usually present at the top of the hilt.

the texture is fine.

so there are 2 possibilities:

Its either Rhino or its cow horn. Ive never seen many brown cow horns of this texture, but then you are more experience then me so we could consider it as a possibility.

So now the only confirmation, remains the light test. The Light test won't work on cow horn. If it works, It is Rhino.

so I await the results. .

[Adriboy]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Not a rhino hilt. I would suggest some sort of cattle horn.

The top of the hilt does not show any of the rhino grain, the translucency is not right. The fiberious structure along the hilt is that of a cattle horn rather than rhino. Also, on the side of the hilt, you can see the white stain like structure that is characteristic of cattle horn.

Many cattle, cow,buffalo and else in our cuntry, and of those horn in our neighbourhood... But direct-physically when we saw those horn, why look not the same... Also deer and ivory, or any kind of wood which traditionally use for Iindonesian call Keris, Parang etc ... It is so different with this weapon hilt material... Or maybe it is camel bone? Or elephant or cattle bone.. Thanks fot help then...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all... Its quite difficult to be definite from the pictures but I still think Rhino. I think I can see what could be the tell tale spaghetti endings otherwise not seen in any of the photos. ... at #1 on the second photo where the light catches the hilt at the end of the tee shape.

There are several colours of Rhino horn moving through the spectrum from dark almost black through to light brown to chrystaline yellow and white with varying degrees of transparency...In the Yemen each grade and colour has a different name...and rarity. Good luck with your quest..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Adriboy]

Just went from the city big handycraft shopping center.. So too many, I mean so much kind of tradional hand made craftmenship using natural material from woods, cow, goat, buffalo including their horns and bones.... Also looking at gallery which have several antique item from elephant ivory, claw and teeth or body part from animal such as tiger, jungle bear, crocodile, wild boar, wild rooster, shark/whale fish... All is totally different through naked eyes look or using magnifier and digital camera with this weapon hilt material ...

This hilt material is surely atural.. But if it is not from wood, not from rhino horn (because surely from member at discussion forum here, that this hilt material not from rhino horn), and not from other several kinds of horn that we have generally in Indonesia, so is it from special cattle horn that not live in Indonesia and maybe similar countries in south east asia ... Maybe unique horn from water buffalo, giraffe, or else...
Thanks for the opinion then..

[Adriboy]

Sorry forum.. Maybe some trouble with my online system and now I make re-reply the last information I just had yesterday, thanks for everybody ...

I Just went from the city big handycraft shopping center.. So many kind of tradional hand made craftmenship using natural material from woods, cow, goat, buffalo including their horns and bones.... Also looking at gallery which have several antique item from elephant ivory, claw, bone and teeth or body part from animal such as tiger, jungle bear, crocodile, wild boar, wild rooster, shark/whale fish... Alll is totally different through naked eyes look or using magnifier and digital camera with this weapon hilt material ...

This hilt material is surely atural.. But if it is not from wood, not from rhino horn (because surely from member at discussion forum here, that this hilt material not from rhino horn), and not from other several kinds of horn that we have generally in Indonesia, so is it from special cattle horn that not live in Indonesia and maybe similar countries in south east asia ... Maybe unique horn from water buffalo, giraffe, or else...

But the problem here that if anyone there have a unique cattle species or unique deer or buffalo species, they must have totally different horn macro and micro structures that we have the common species here in south east asia... And of that unique speces is using in this called Yemen jambiya dagger (from wikipedia and other online information)...
Again, Thanks everyone for the opinion .

Regards, Adrian

[Adriboy]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all... Its quite difficult to be definite from the pictures but I still think Rhino. I think I can see what could be the tell tale spaghetti endings otherwise not seen in any of the photos. ... at #1 on the second photo where the light catches the hilt at the end of the tee shape.

There are several colours of Rhino horn moving through the spectrum from dark almost black through to light brown to chrystaline yellow and white with varying degrees of transparency...In the Yemen each grade and colour has a different name...and rarity. Good luck with your quest..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi.
Thanks to Ibrahim and Bantaru..

What you said about colours and the colour spectrums are right..

Also when I look to the micro structures with 3x2times and 10times magnifier of this hilt are right : the hair strands-thin spaghetti, the orange peel are totally right..

Physically morphology ewith naked eye catching plus using magnifier also right : what we have here that all woods, stones, animal lijke deer, cow, sheep, crocodile, wild boar, cattle, water buffalo and else, are totally different in their kind of element part, body parts, horn, bones, with this kind of hilt..

Many photos in this forum about the microstrustures of rhino and also by searching in google (thanks for them), that have similarities with the hilt I have..

But why somebody said this hilt is (maybe) a cattle horn, carabou horn or deer horn, or water buffalo horn or common or domestic horn.. All are tottally different if we look directly with magnifier to see the microstructures... Do you have unique apecies for unique hilt?

Please give explanation abut it... Because by looking and focus on micro structures, this hilt jambiya dagger of mine, is a real rhino horn hilt, as Ibrahiim, Bantaru and members (thanks to you all) that surely give the excact knowledge about rhino (including history of jambiya dagger from Yemen)..

Regards, Adrian

[BANTARU]

hey Adriboy,

You are Welcome. No there are no unique species for unique hilts. there are only unique species for unique costs.

[Adriboy]

Originally Posted by BANTARU

hey Adriboy,

You are Welcome. No there are no unique species for unique hilts. there are only unique species for unique costs.

Thanks for your opinion..