Unusual kris with shell guard

[carlos]

I just return from postal office and... surprise !!!
This is my last adquisition, a very unusual kris with shell guard. I have only seen another like this in the antique spanish army museum in Madrid, now in Toledo I don´t know if the wall plaque is exhibited.
The handle is marked with C S 22 and seems very old.
I wish enjoy pictures
I, m very happy now !!
best regards
carlos

[kino]

That's a beauty Carlos. Very unusual! I wonder if that shell guard was originally on a different sword or was it made for the kris? The origin of the guard would probably tell more of the story.
The hilt is not your typical Moro design, from what i can see same with the one in the museum, not the typical Moro design.. It's odd that they would both be missing the clamps.
I wonder if they were captured and re-hilted blades.
I too would be very happy. Thanks for sharing.

[VVV]

Congratulations!!!

A very exciting find.
The blade reminds me of a Panay kris and the hilt and guard of the Bicolano Minasbad?
I look forward to read the comments of those specialized in Filipino blades...

Michael

[Robert]

Carlos, I am again very jealous of your new find. What a beautiful and unique piece. I was just looking for a specific photo of one particular minisbad that I was to post for comparison because like Michael I too believe that the hilt and guard bears a striking resemblance to ones found on swords from Bicol. Again, my congratulations on you new acquisition.


Best,
Robert

[Gustav]

It's the time in the year to post Barry's kris again :


http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000669.html

[Battara]

No argument from me a out what has been said so far. I will only add that the clam guard looks European on origin all the way through. Lots of trade and captured pieces with mixed parts.

[Gustav]

Looking at the features at the bade of the blade, the kris from museum is clearly the same blade type, and also a hilt with spiral:

[Robert]

Photo of guards for better comparison.


Robert

[David]

Please forgive me for what i am about to say Carlos and remember that what is most important about anything you collect is that you like it. But with everybody remarking about the beauty of this piece i simply must state that i find it to be awkward and ugly. This pieces just don't belong together, even if there is another example in the Spanish Army Museum.
I will agree that this is a not a Moro blade and that it certainly is unusual. Michael may well be onto the origin with this kris.

[carlos]

Originally Posted by David

Please forgive me for what i am about to say Carlos and remember that what is most important about anything you collect is that you like it. But with everybody remarking about the beauty of this piece i simply must state that i find it to be awkward and ugly. This pieces just don't belong together, even if there is another example in the Spanish Army Museum.
I will agree that this is a not a Moro blade and that it certainly is unusual. Michael may well be onto the origin with this kris.

hello David
All opinions ae wellcome !! I love this type of edged weapons, mixture between 2 cultures.
Best regards
Carlos

[Gavin Nugent]

Right or wrong, ugly or beautiful it is very practical.

This would install a lot of confidence in the user.

Nice to see.

Gavin

[carlos]

Maybe Bicol kris ?

[Battara]

Actually this Bicol piece is not a kris. But yes there is mixing of cultural European infuences to be sure especially north of the Morolands.

[Robert]

Hello Carlos, There are a couple of questions that I have been meaning to ask sense you first posted this sword. Looking at the photo of the end of the hilt it looks as though the blades tang might extend completely through the hilt. If it did I would suggest that there would also have been a small butt plate that is now missing. Can you tell if there could also have been a metal ferrule that is now missing on the guard end of the hilt like on the minisbad you have pictured next to it in the photo above?

Best,
Robert

[Spunjer]

Nice catch, Carlos! it does resemble a minasbad, down to how the handle was designed. we are aware of krises from the visayan region; it's a possibility that this was the bicol region's version of kris. also, the blade looks similar to the visayan kris. not surprising; after all the regions are adjacent to each other.

also of note: i'm not sure how it is nowadays, but back in the 19th century and earlier, there were a few moro enclaves in the island of mindoro, an island not far from the visayan and bicol regions.

[Maurice]

Congratulations Carlos with your nice and absolutely rare find!

Maurice

[carlos]

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello Carlos, There are a couple of questions that I have been meaning to ask sense you first posted this sword. Looking at the photo of the end of the hilt it looks as though the blades tang might extend completely through the hilt. If it did I would suggest that there would also have been a small butt plate that is now missing. Can you tell if there could also have been a metal ferrule that is now missing on the guard end of the hilt like on the minisbad you have pictured next to it in the photo above?

Best,
Robert

Hi Robert!!
Yes, this is my impression too, the guard shell is free, I think a metal ferrule it could be there.
Best regards
carlos

[kai]

I'd posit that we certainly have a pattern here!

Despite minor differences, the 2 wavy blades have obviously been crafted in the same, unique style and also have the same type of shell guard; moreover, Barry's blade is clearly from the same tradition as already noted by Gustav! And all 3 of them come with a hilt whose close relationship with the typical minasbad hilt can't be a mere coincidence and is certainly the most important feature for placing these enigmas.

Looking at the base features from a Moro POV, I agree with David that the blade esthetics are off. IMHO this (together with the consistant but unique style) clearly shows that these 3 pieces are very unlikely to have originated from a Moro (expat) community and most likely represent an acculturation by another ethnic group.

Actually this Bicol piece is not a kris.

I am not that sure, Jose. If we accept Lumad swords with kris-like base features as Lumad kris, we should also call these Bicolano kris IMVHO.

I am on record for not supporting Visayan "undulated swords" to be called kris since (except for a number of trade/booty Moro blades that got refitted in Visayan style) I see very little which supports the notion of a tradition entering another culture (rather than reproducing one or two features of a - literally - striking foreign icon).

These 3 blades are something different: they are representing an unique style of craftmanship while obviously trying to preserve most features of a Moro kris bauplan even down to minor details: IMHO this is a genuine offshoot of the evolving keris/kris tradition despite coming from a non-Hindu/non-Islamic culture.

Congrats, Carlos and Barry!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

I'm with Robert here:

Looking at the photo of the end of the hilt it looks as though the blades tang might extend completely through the hilt.

Yes, that looks like a full tang!

If it did I would suggest that there would also have been a small butt plate that is now missing.

A close-up with the focus on the tip of the pommel would be great, Carlos! Can you ascertain with a magnifying glass wether hints of a lost butt plate/cap can be seen (stain, wear, etc.)? Such a pommel cap or butt plate/peened tang would kinda mess with the flow of lines of this hilt though.

Can you tell if there could also have been a metal ferrule that is now missing on the guard end of the hilt like on the minisbad you have pictured next to it in the photo above?

I am sure there originally was an octagonal silver ferrule as well as strips of silver in the grip spiral (like also seen in Barry's example).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Michael,

The blade reminds me of a Panay kris and

I am convinced that all 3 blades are of local (Bicolano) production.

Do you have any pics of Panay/Visayan kris blades with similar base features? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

[VANDOO]

THERE ARE SEVERAL SIMULARITYS AMONG THESE KRIS. TWO APPEAR TO HAVE HANDLES CARVED FROM WATERBUFFALOW HORN AND HAVE THE SPIRAL CARVED GRIP WHICH IS LIKELY TO HAVE HAD TWISTED SILVER WIRE AND PERHAPS SILVER BANDS AS IN MY KRIS. I CAN'T TELL IF THE EXAMPLE IN THE SPANISH MUSEUM IS HORN OR WOOD. THE FILE WORK ON THE ELEPHANT TRUNK/ BIRD BEAK IS SIMULAR AS WELL AND A BIT DIFFERENT FROM MOST MORO FORMS.
MORO KRIS SELDOM HAVE HORN HANDLES ALTHOUGH SOME DO EXHIST. SILVER IS OFTEN USED BUT THE HANDLE GRIP ITS-SELF IS NOT CARVED IN A SPIRAL TO HOLD THE SILVER.
BEWARE CONJECTURE ITS POSSIBLE SOME SLAVES WERE CAPTURED AND LEARNED THE ART OF SWORD MAKEING AS SLAVES AND LATER AS APPRENTICES WHEN THEY EARNED THEIR FREEDOM. WHEN FREE SUCH INDIVIDUALS COULD HAVE RETURNED TO THEIR PEOPLE TO WORK, LOCAL INFLUENCES COULD HAVE BEEN INCORPORATED INTO THE WEAPONS MADE IN SUCH CASES. THIS COULD EXPLAIN SOME OF THE REGIONAL DIFFERENCES. THE TWO MAIN SOURCES OF INFLUENCE OF WHAT WE KNOW AS THE MORO KRIS IS MINDANAO AND MALAYSIA ALL VARIATIONS WOULD BE DRAWN FROM THESE TWO SOURCES. I THINK THE KRIS WITH A GAURD IS WAY COOL CONGRADULATIONS

[VVV]

Hello Kai,

Great input of all and I enjoy learning more about odd Filipino blades.
However, I disagree that Carlos' kris so obviously has the same blade features as the one in the museum and Barry's.
The last two have (1) separate ganya, (2) a more "kris-like" elephant trunk and greneng as well as (3) overall a higher resemblance to Moro kris blades.
It would be great to read for instance Jon's opinion of this blade, too?
The reason I thought it resembled Panay kris was feature 2) and 3).
But this in not my field and I look forward to be corrected on this...
I don't have a lot of reference pictures but here are some (non exactly resembling Carlos').
Maybe some other forumite have a more resembling kris?

1) From eBay 5 years ago
2) Panay 1
3) Panay 2 (check the trunk)

Michael

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by VVV

However, I disagree that Carlos' kris so obviously has the same blade features as the one in the museum and Barry's.
The last two have (1) separate ganya, (2) a more "kris-like" elephant trunk and greneng as well as (3) overall a higher resemblance to Moro kris blades.
It would be great to read for instance Jon's opinion of this blade, too?
The reason I thought it resembled Panay kris was feature 2) and 3).
Michael

Michael, please take a closer look at the features of the base of blade at Carlos', museum's and Barry's kris.

For description of them I will use the Javanese terminology, becouse it is the most complete and most familiar one. I have chosen the picture of Barry's kris, becouse it is the single one most correct picture to analyse the features.

The way Kembang (Sekar) Kacang/Tikel Alis/Blumbangan/Gandhik/Jalen Area is arranged on all three krisses is almost identical and absolutely sufficient to understand them as the same variety (arrow 1):

Tikel Alis falls extremely deep into the Blumbangan (you will never see something similar on other krisses or kerisses), actually it falls deeper then the point where Jalen starts; the outer ridge of Tikel Alis continues the Tampingan; Gandhik is an extremely falling/sloping one; the way Kembang Kacang is cut is very similar if not identical, despite Carlos' kris not having a Jenggot.

A very interesting point is the indentation on Gonjo (arrow 2). It seems not to reserved for a clamp (like on Moro krisses), becouse it continues the (falling)Tampingan perfectly. A purely esthetical pupose?

The Kepet Urang (Buntut Mimi) of Gonjo (arrow 3) is bent up (or perhaps carved this way on museum's kris), something that does not appear often on Moro kris.


I must say, Carlos' kris is perhaps the crudest one of these three: there is a material left for Greneng and Jenggot, yet these these aren't cut out; no separate Gonjo.


All three krisses are narrow, the waved ones (Carlos' and museum's) do have the same kind of waves with long tip.

I also don't understand, why do you say Barry's kris has overall a higher resemblance to Moro kris blades. Actually, becouse of Wangun (widening of the blade towards the tip), its overall shape doesn't resemble a straight Moro kris at all.

To your examples: I don't see much similarities with the three former krisses, actually almost none. The Ebay example is superficially similar, becouse of more elaborate features, yet that's all. The Kembang Kacang/Tikel Alis/Blumbangan/Gandhik/Jalen Area is completely different worked, these is also a huge Bawang Sebungkul-like feature missing in all three former examples. The overall shape of the kris is a completely other one.

For the second example, I miss any similarity.

The third example has Moro/Javanese inspired Greneng, bent (or worked like it) Kepet Urang (like arrow 3) and the indentation on Gonjo (like arrow 2), yet here I think possibly has been a clamp. Here are some similarities, yet by far not so close as in-between the former three krisses.

A diagram for the features of base of blade:

http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

[VVV]

Gustav, thanks for taking your time writing such a good explanation.
I can see that my references were not as clear as I hoped so maybe I should have skipped them altogether (or maybe only included #3).

What I wanted to show was that, especially, the elephant trunk area (your arrow 1) on Carlos' kris is quite crudely done, something that is also found on the kris blades from Panay.
It seems from your description like you have the same impression of Carlos' kris, but not the other krisses, on this part?
The blade did not strike me as Moro, and never having heard about the Bicolano kris production before this, combined with the other features, made me suspect Panay. A proven kris producing area which is quite close to Bicol, too.
This is getting more and more interesting and I hope someone soon will be able to find some reference on the existence of local kris production in Bicol.

Michael

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by VVV

What I wanted to show was that, especially, the elephant trunk area (your arrow 1) on Carlos' kris is quite crudely done, something that is also found on the kris blades from Panay.
It seems from your description like you have the same impression of Carlos' kris, but not the other krisses, on this part?

Michael

Michael, you certainly are correct. Even if we would suppose, the Carlos' kris would have lost some substance due to some rust cleaning/resharpening, it is much crudely done from beginning on.

It's a pity we don't have closer pictures of museum's kris, which appears to be better crafted and in good condition.

[Battara]

Ok regarding the Bicol piece not being or being a form of kris, I guess I need to see the whole blade.

[kai]

Hello Jose,

Here the one from the Spanish museum.

How about the other two examples from Carlos and Barry?

Regards,
Kai

[Robert]

This the best that I can do. Hope it is of some help.

Best,
Robert

[carlos]

New pictures from the tang and place from missing ferrule ?
Best regards and thanks all for information
carlos

[Gustav]

Carlos, are there engravings on the Gandhik (area under the elefant trunk), or are these just different overlapping metal layers? I see, this side of the blade base (from your previous post) is in much better state of preservation, perhaps becouse of the protrusion of the hand guard covering it. Now we see the other side has been extensively filed down.

If you were able to remove the hilt and hand guard completely, it would be very interesting to see a complete picture of this side (base of blade looking at it from 90°).