Pamor thread?

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,
Would it be possible to have a thread with pamor photos?
I know this has been done with particular Keris which folk have gotten and others post similar or related pieces, but could a gallery of sorts be made where such images can be posted? Or maybe a sticky thread?

Some of you have posted images of Pamor I had never seen...really top shelf stuff.

Just a completely selfish cry from the snow covered shop of a blacksmith.
I am about to reconstruct some of these patterns and the larger sample body I have the better it is for me.

Ric

[sirek]

the idea was already suggested, but it did not come further than an idea

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12521

[Richard Furrer]

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

[Bjorn]

It would certainly be a feast for the eyes, and a nice way to look up pamor patterns one is unfamiliar with. It might be a bit difficult to set it up in a forum environment though, owing to the huge number of patterns in existence.

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard there are a lot of variations to pamor patterns, but there is a quite limited number of basic patterns, possibly only about 5 or so.

There are a lot of clear pictures of pamor patterns in Haryoguritno, but you will find that just about everything that we can see in pamor patterns is reflected in damascus patterns, and when you compare the two you'll probably find that you've already seen the pattern, or at least a pattern that has been produced in a similar way, in either Figiel or Sasche.

What we sometimes think of as a variation is in fact failure to achieve a desired effect.

[Richard Furrer]

Alan,
I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

You may indeed be correct, but in searching just this list I have discovered much. Makes me wonder what I am missing.

Perhaps if I post images of my reconstructions it would spur some interest.

Ric

[David]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

Ric, i don't think that you will want to get caught in the "name game" here and it will only distract you from what it seems you goals are. As Alan has already pointed out, there are a lot of good examples of pamor pattern in many available books. You will likely not only find the same name used for "similar" patterns that seem to have an obviously different approach, but completely different names for the same "exact" patterns, dependent upon many variables including, but not exclusive to the area the blade originates from, when the blade was made and what reference materials the person applying the name has read for their source info.
I am not sure what good it would serve to amass a colection of various pamors here except to create endless debate on what these various pamors should be called. You can certainly find a fairly large selection of clear photographs of different patterns either in some of these reference books or with a google search of images under the key word "keris pamor patterns".

[Richard Furrer]

Indeed Gentleman,
Pictures abound. I have most of the books...some 20 or so on Keris and many hundreds of sword/knife books in general.
Yet,
Some of the photos posted here are new patterns..maybe not in appearance to many of you, but to a smith they indeed are not documented in any book I have.

As to names:
I generally do not care until it comes time to do a search for a specific pattern type and then a name is useful.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard, you've noted in this most recent post that some of the pamor patterns "posted here" --- which I take as posted to this Forum --- are new patterns that do not appear in the books you have.

Yes, you're right.

We see a fair few pamor patterns posted mostly by people looking for a name, or to confirm a name. I can think of two that have surfaced in the last couple of weeks:- kembang pete (this is pronounced in a similar way to "pehteh", not as the abbreviation of "Peter") and klabang sejuta.

The kp is a variation of bendo sagodo, or brongsong, or santa, and 40 years ago all of them would probably have been dumped into the same basket and the variations from bendo sagodo would have been regarded as attempts that didn't quite make it. Or, alternatively the kp might have been regarded as banyu tetes on steroids.

The ks is interesting. I first saw this pamor in probably about 1988. It was the first time I'd seen it, the first time the dealer I bought from had seen it, and the first time Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo had seen it. It was a new creation out of Sumenep. For a number of years it was called "tirto tejo". Now it looks like the power of public opinion, or maybe marketing has decided that its klabang sejuta.

Now, this name is interesting, and it tells us that we are in fact looking at a new pamor that has been very probably given its name by the people in Jakarta, rather than people in the Javanese heartland. If this was an old Javanese pamor and they wanted to call it "thousand centipede" it would be "klabang sewu".

Sewu = one thousand in Javanese, sejuta = post 1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian, seyuta = pre-1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian. The transposition of "o" for "a" in some words is a Javanese characteristic of colloquial speech, so if "sewu sejuta" were to be spoken by a Javanese person in relaxed conversation, it would very probably be pronounced "sewuseyuto". The inclusion of an "e" after the "k" (kelabang) is the written expression of the pronunciation, which could probably be better represented by an apostrophe rather than an 'e', but it is not the usually accepted formal spelling.

But why didn't the originators of this name use Indonesian for "centipede"? "klabang " is Javanese

Well, if they had the name would be "lipan berbisa sejuta".

Sorta doesn't flow real well, does it?

And klabang has probably come over into Indonesian fairly widely, its certainly understood, anyway, and sounds better than "lipan berbisa"

All of the original keris terminology is Javanese.

Why?

Because the keris is first and foremost a Javanese cultural artifact.

Bahasa Indonesia, or Indonesian, is based upon Malay as it is spoken in a part of South Sumatera. Indonesian is the national language of the country, Indonesia, it is not the language of the Javanese people.

So when we see keris terminology rendered in Indonesian it is a dead give away that what we're looking at is a newly manufactured name, and probably a newly manufactured artifact as well.

Before somebody jumps onto the bandwagon and points out that everywhere the keris appears there are names that vary from the Javanese let us consider the spread of the keris.

This spread of the keris probably began with Majapahit trade links, but at that time in history the keris within Majapahit had a very specific social function, a function that would have precluded many forms of keris from being legitimately worn by people who were outside the Majapahit social structure. Some would very probably have been given to local rulers in parts of SE Asia that were under Majapahit influence, but there would have been no keris presence in the general populace in these places outside Majapahit.

With Islam a couple of things happened:- Javanese metal working skills went through a quantum leap (Pigeaud), and trade expanded. This was when the keris dispersion really took off, and by the late 17th century keris had actually become trade goods. The original purpose of the keris in Jawa had disappeared with the disappearance of Majapahit.

Thus, when the keris found its way into other parts of SE Asia it was adopted as a local artifact and given its own name and terminology by the local people in these other places.

In fact, keris terminology is full of euphemisms. Nowhere does a keris term tell you what the thing it refers to truly is.

So, fast forward to the keris revival of the 1970's and the second coming of the keris industry in Sumenep --- second coming, because these people have been making keris for the rest of Jawa since Majapahit times. We have a number of very talented pattern welders who are now taking traditional pamor motifs and extending the possibilities of those traditional motifs. It's understandable that we are seeing some seemingly different pamor motifs, but when we closely examine those motifs we can always relate them to a traditional motif, or to a combination of traditional motifs.

As David has noted, the name game is a pointless exercise. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no firm foundation to keris terminology. One can devote years to learning all the little quirks of keris terminology that apply in one particular location, then move 40 kilometers down the road and find that perhaps half of his hard won knowledge is not really of much use in his new location. One thing we should never get too upset about is the fact that not everybody will always agree as to name of some pamor, dhapur or whatever.

I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.

Well, i am not opposed to such a thread outright. Bring it on if the membership is so inclined. My suggestion would be close, detailed photographs that clearly show the pattern and lead to a better understanding of the construction of the pamor pattern. Sharpness and clarity of the images will be very important if the images are to be truly useful. Endless debate about the "correct" name of posted pamors will not. Let the uploading begin...

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I reckon that's the way to go David.

I feel that one complete blade shot, and at least one close-up should be the minimum requirement.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, I reckon that's the way to go David.

I feel that one complete blade shot, and at least one close-up should be the minimum requirement.

I suggest an underneath view of the Ganja as well...it often has the cross-section of the original block from which the keris was forged...very telling as to construction of the blade.....and sometimes not related at all.

I'll go through my tiny grouping of keris and see if I have anything worth posting. As I have a new display stand (thank you Alan) I have reason to get them all in one place now.

Ric

[sirek]

If I may suggest, it might also be useful and easier to use if everyone uses the same size pictures, about: 500 x 800 pixels (fits in one screen image)

[A. G. Maisey]

You know, if we really wanted to get this thing up and running, it might be useful to harvest from old posts as a beginning strategy.

Its a simple thing to copy a pic, rework if necessary and then post again with a cross reference to the original post.

Since Richard generated this idea of a dedicated thread, I feel that the honour of carrying out this harvest should go to Richard.

I agree fully with David that this new thread should not degenerate into a bun fight over names, but I equally feel that where we have a name it should be given, however, not in isolation, but rather in a format that attaches the name to a source, for example:-

" According to Harsrinuksmo , P.123, this is pamor ron kates."

Any other opinions would be required to be posted in a similar format, that way we won't waste time and effort with endless conflicting opinions that have no solid foundation.

[Richard Furrer]

OK
If folk do not mind me harvesting past images to repost I will do that.

Ric

[David]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

OK
If folk do not mind me harvesting past images to repost I will do that.

Ric

Ric, i would say that if they placed them in another thread on these forums that they are pretty much fair game. Have at it!

[Richard Furrer]

Here I believe is the first batch.
I selected what are interesting to me in no particular order.
Ric

[Richard Furrer]

More

Ric

[Richard Furrer]

More
Ric

[Richard Furrer]

More
Ric

[Richard Furrer]

Yet more
Ric

[Richard Furrer]

double posting Sorry
Ric

[Jean]

Hello friends,
Personally and in order to facilitate further reference I would recommend that we open a separate post for each main type of pamor so that everyone could include his specimens at any time. And as advised by Alan I would further propose that we standardize the pictures as follows: full blade viewed from both sides, sor-soran viewed fom both sides, and ganja base viewed from the peksi tip.
Regards

[Richard Furrer]

Jean,
Sounds good. These images were taken from other threads so you get what they posted.
Ric

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello friends,
Personally and in order to facilitate further reference I would recommend that we open a separate post for each main type of pamor so that everyone could include his specimens at any time. And as advised by Alan I would further propose that we standardize the pictures as follows: full blade viewed from both sides, sor-soran viewed fom both sides, and ganja base viewed from the peksi tip.
Regards

Well then Jean, someone will need to describe and designate the names for those main types of pamor in order to coordinate this. And while this may make some sense it does not create the one go-to thread of all pamors that was the O.P.'s original request.
Certainly images of blades in their sheaths, while perhaps nice to look at, deal with dress and not pamor so i would recommend that we refrain from posting such images.

[Rick]

[A. G. Maisey]

My vote would be for a single thread dealing with only pamor.

As David has said, if we begin to categorise and split into types, we then have the difficulty of identifying the pamor in order to categorise it, and what would be the basis for the categorisation?

The whole thing would be too difficult.

Nope, I really do think that we dump everything into one basket, and if the necessity should arise whereby we need to examine a particular pamor more closely, we can lift that pamor and begin a thread for its examination.

I see Ric's pamor thread as something like an overarching reference, that can then generate further threads.

[Bjorn]

I'd also prefer one thread containing all the pamor types. Separate threads would make classification difficult and would make it more difficult for interested people to come across new patterns.

[sirek]

It seems to me nevertheless useful to place them in certain categories, to make it a lot easier to look something up.

(Maybe an indication of categories used in the Dutch pamor-atlas)

Beras wutah like- pamorpatterns
Spherical- pamorpatterns
Leaf shaped- pamorpatterns
Striped- pamorpatterns
Angle shaped- pamorpatterns
Other- pamorpatterns

Otherwise you get (in my opinion) a pamorthread with hundreds of pictures you have to look through,to find something if you do not know the name of the pamor

[Jean]

Originally Posted by sirek

It seems to me nevertheless useful to place them in certain categories, to make it a lot easier to look something up.
Otherwise you get (in my opinion) a pamorthread with hundreds of pictures you have to look through,to find something if you do not know the name of the pamor

Sirek,
This is exactly my concern and why I suggested a separate thread (not post, sorry for my mistake) for each main type of pamor but it seems that the idea is not popular, no problem!
Regards