Great Helm late 14th century ?

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here are some pics of an antique Great Helm (of the Pembridge type). It was sold for 8,000 £ by a very famous auction house (a long time ago), and expertized as being late 14th century. What is your opinion on this piece ?

Thanks,

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

[Jean-Marc S.]

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=143313

[A Senefelder]

Well as far as dating goes this " final " development of the great helmet as a piece of field armour ( it would develope further for use in jousting culminating in the big " frog mouthed " tournement helmets of the late 15th century ) are almost universally attributed to " the end of the 14th century " although in truth by the last years of the century they would have been a little dated on the field, houndskulls being " state of the art " at that time. That being said there are a few later examples like that of Sir Nicholas Hauberk ( died 1407 ) which appears to be of the " frog mouthed " jousting type, and Henry V had an early development of the more " frog mouthed " type specifically for jousting, of early 15th century manufacture, although it was not field but " sport " equipment. " Late 14th century " is safe although by the 1390's it would be as I mentioned a bit dated.

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks Senefelder

[Jim McDougall]

I knew Alan would have an excellent entry on this, and since this is not at all my field, I wanted to do some research anyway, It is a great opportunity to see one of these rare but distinctive helms, which seem to often be depicted in many illustrations of the knight, it appears on the logo for the Danish Arms & Armour Society.

It would be interesting to know more on exactly what auction and date this one is provenanced. One of these, appararantly considered authentic, was sold by Sothebys, London, 21 May 1974, #185 to the Royal Armouries, and had been owned by Peter Dale Ltd.
It was published in Journal of the Arms & Armour Society in June, 1977, Vol.IX, #1, "An Unrecorded English Helm c.1370" by Derek Spalding (pp.6-9)

Apparantly up to 1974, only two of these helms of this date/period with English provenance were recorded. The most famed of these was the helm of this same form of Edward , Prince of Wales (The Black Prince) c.1376, held in Canterbury Cathedral.
The second (for which the form is apparantly named) is that of Sir Richard Pembridge c.1375, originally at Hereford Cathedral but then to the Royal Scottish Museum in Edinburgh.
The helm of this article is apparantly suggested by Mr. Spalding to be the third helm of this particular 'great helm' form from this specific period.

I am wondering what the source is for the illustrations of the Pembridge helm against a replica posted here. While there are of course a number of modern reproductions of this famous form, it is known that in the 19th century (about 1830s-1878) a Samuel Lake Pratt in London was dealing in then modernly produced items including these type helms (made by someone named Grimshaw). This according to Spalding's footnotes is referenced in "The Knight and Umbrella" by Ian Anstruther, 1963.

It seems I recall an example of one of these 'great helms' among the holdings at the armoury at Castel Sant Angelo at the Vatican as well, but as yet have not found that reference.

This is a fascinating example of these famed helms, and I look forward to hearing more from Jean-Marc and Alan regarding the information from this 1977 article.

All best regards,
Jim


** Found the Castel sant Angelo reference
" Archaeology of Weapons" Ewart Oakeshott, London 1960
p. 263, a great helm from Bozen (S. Tyrol) c.1280-1310 (fig. 129)
This one has a flat top and riveted band, the 'breathing holes' in pattern on the front sides are T shaped, and this seems to be a German type.

There was another article written in these I believe in "Man at Arms" magazine, but as yet have not located.

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks Jim for all this interesting information. I just got this great helm from a long time collector, who purchased it from a specialized dealer in 1993. It was previously sold at Sotheby's or Christie's auction a decade before, at 8,000 £ (from memory, he did not remember exactly which auction and is currently looking for the corresponding catalog page among his tons of papers; I will let you know ASAP).
To Jim: The link to the photo has been provided in my previous post

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Jean-Marc,
In looking at the photos of the helm you have posted against those in the example published in 1977 I have described, there are remarkable similarities which might even suggest these could have been from the same workshop. In the published one (sold at Sothebys in 1974) there is a hook or some type of fixture atop the dome, where the one you post there is a hook resembling some type of belt hook if I see it correctly at the back, while the dome seems unappended.

With this I would estimate this one to be contemporary (based on visual assessment) to those which are as noted English and of about 1370. This may be essentially a fourth of the type from this particular dating, and as noted possibly from the workshop of the one to the Royal Armouries in 1977. Naturally my opinion would defer to those here far better versed in armour, Alan being probably the most experienced.

All the best,
Jim

[A Senefelder]

Jim, Henry the V helmet has the same piece on the back of it. Pics here http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12798.html . These helmets are not " light ", Henry's I believe is something like 16-17 pounds so that bracket at the back being a belt loop seems unlikely for at least that example. In tournaments, it was not uncommon to secure a re-enfocing plate on the left side of the helmet. I have wondered if these brackets may have been for securing this tournament re-enforcing piece.

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks Jim and Alan for the interesting information, and links to these nice documented great helms.

What stroke me first was the dark, brownish black metal color of my great helm, which is very similar to the color of the documented 14th century English great helms, such as the one of Sir Richard Pembridge: there is some light corrosion to the metal with a sort of surface coating of hard black oxide. In my opinion, this should be noted as most helmets from the period are often seen 'bright' metal.

[Jim McDougall]

Alan, I apparantly did not respond to your post concerning the curious appendage at the back of the helmet, and quite honestly that fixture has continued to perplex me ever since. Actually I did not mean of course that this was a belt hook but it reminded me of one in its appearance. You are quite right, jousting armor was quite heavy, and it seems apparant that the helm at Henry V's tomb at Westminster is an item of this type.

I have discovered more on the funerary achievements at Henry's tomb, and it does seem that some of the items were 'disturbed' during the Reformation, and there are certain reservations whether the helm and the sword are actually his or perhaps replacements. One reference even claimed there was a dent in the helm received at Agincourt, which seems odd as this was a jousting helm, not a combat one.
Another reference noted that at some point after the helm was placed at the tomb originally it was in some disrepair and damage at the peak of it was repaired and crest removed. It is noted in this discussion that at this point the helm was rehung with the iron hook affixed at the back.

This would suggest that these 'hooks' were probably fixtures attached to helms which had become funerary achievements in churches tombs, much as the case with Henry V's helm.

In an article in "The Connoisseur" (1902, Vo. 3. p.38, unnamed author) it notes that armour found in churches has often been tinkered with and adapted to funeral purposes even when not necessarily belonging to panoply of the interred.

I am inclined to think that perhaps this helm shown by Jean-Marc may be an authentic combat helm which later became a funerary achievement, suggested by the hook at back. It seems that affixing the helm in normal cases to the rest of the harness was through attached loops at front and back at base, or often by the T or cross apertures at the face which received a toggled chain.

Just wanted to add this additional info which I have found over the past week in various entries. Also, armor in these times was actually not bright but the metal treated in various ways, sometimes even painted, to prevent or at least dissuade rust. One method was fire bluing, but also used was 'russeting' or browning which promoted uniform but controlled rusting which could be checked.

[A Senefelder]

I have discovered more on the funerary achievements at Henry's tomb, and it does seem that some of the items were 'disturbed' during the Reformation, and there are certain reservations whether the helm and the sword are actually his or perhaps replacements. One reference even claimed there was a dent in the helm received at Agincourt, which seems odd as this was a jousting helm, not a combat one.

This would suggest that these 'hooks' were probably fixtures attached to helms which had become funerary achievements in churches tombs, much as the case with Henry V's helm.

In an article in "The Connoisseur" (1902, Vo. 3. p.38, unnamed author) it notes that armour found in churches has often been tinkered with and adapted to funeral purposes even when not necessarily belonging to panoply of the interred.

Jim this is certainly a possibility as it was far from uncommon ( I have also heard of some speculation regarding Henry's helmet ). I owned one example ( 17th century ) and have handled two others ( late 16th or 17th century ) that were replacements to go over much older tombs. They were all of 17th century type, and varied from well made to quickly assembled but all three shared one thing in common, a certain degree, greater or lesser of nonfunctionallity. These three were all made when armour was still in use, granted when its use was begining to wane, and all three lacked some functional aspect. Henry's helmet in construction and weight is consistant " for use " albiet for jousting in that period. If the helmet is indeed a replacement, the vast constructional difference between it, in relationship to use, and the much later replacement examples i've handled leads me to wonder if , Henry's indeed is a replacement, it might not be a " working helmet " of similar period, perhaps during Henry's living memory, put to that purpose? The difference in construction, especially when put into context, the late examples i've handled are replacing pieces over tombs already several hundered years old, and are maintaining " tradition " and appearences, the practice had effectively ceased years and years before by that time. The earlier examples, Henry's, The Black Prince et al, when the practice was the norm and a real expression of a mans accomplishments are of functional contstruction. I think your idea that Jean's may infact reflect exactly the later lends itself to the idea.

My only other thought on these clips or " hangers " on the back is that they may simply be something that falls into the same catagory as the " rondel " on the back of 15th century armets. No one is really 100% certain what they were for, the most prominent theory being that they were to protect the strap of the wrapper defense buckled over the front of the helmet from being cut, but still not complete certainty. Mayhaps these clips, which do not appear on all surviving great helmets ( indeed i'm personally unaware of any early eamples which have it, only 14th century fully developed types, which of course given the small amount of surviving material is far from conclusive )have a use that remains to be determined although the idea of suspension for use as a funnery achievement is certainly a very practicle idea ( especially given the not insubstantial weight of this type of helmet ) in much the same manner as the current thought on the purpose of the armet rondel. This would be exactly the sort of thing that makes the hobby fun and interesting, it makes one think, it makes the mind work to solve the little mysteries that come with each new aquisition, playing a little Sherlock Homes to nail down " whats it do", " where and when did it come from ".

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Alan for offering further well informed insight into this conundrum and for your supportive observations toward my thoughts. As I earlier mentioned, this is a field of study I admit I have never gone much into, and now that I have I find it absolutely fascinating.
I have mined through quite a few resources in the past week or so, and it seems the only other example I have found with this curious 'hook' is Henry V's, which is virtually identical in style and placement. The only references I have found were primarily in other discussions but with some apparantly also well informed individuals and aside from many of the reproduction type topics.
It does seem to make perfect sense to use actual items contemporary to the individuals lefetime and 'of the style' used in order to accomplish the traditional and honorary effect wished in accord with the tomb of the person.
Museums of course often use this very convention in order to convey such effect in representations in certain contexts where actual examples are not available. Naturally over hundreds of years many of these artifacts were unfortunately purloined, especially as collecting gained popularity, but in the case of Henry apparantly politically charged motivations may have been at play during the Reformation.

Thank you again for the outstanding response, and for the reinforcement in learning more on these helms.

All the very best,
Jim

[A Senefelder]

Thank you again for the outstanding response, and for the reinforcement in learning more on these helms.

My pleasure Jim, but it is a very small thing. The vast amount i've learned here ( I am only recently arrived to ethnographics, beyond Indo-Persian and the amount garnered in that realm is profound ) is something that the little I can volunteer will never never be comensurate.

Naturally over hundreds of years many of these artifacts were unfortunately purloined, especially as collecting gained popularity, but in the case of Henry apparantly politically charged motivations may have been at play during the Reformation.

Indeed, between war, natural decay and outright absconding over the centuries its scarce wonder that there is as little material in situae as there is.

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks so much Alan and Jim for your advised and helpful comments on great helms.